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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:45 am Post subject: Flugelhorn - Cleaning Hard To Reach Places |
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It's hard to clean a flugelhorn from the bell to where the tubing enters the third valve casing because there isn't a snake long enough to go all the way through from the bell end. This is especially a problem for flugelhorns where the tubing isn't straight through the valve cluster because it's difficult to get to this area from the mouthpiece end due to the staggered tubing. Even on horns where the tubing is straight through the valve cluster there still isn't a snake long enough to reach all the way through the bell and out of the horn.
Last night I was practicing on my Adams F2 when the A on the second ledger line above the staff became very squirrelly. The slot was almost non-existent. I knew from experience that this meant there was an obstruction. So, I disassembled the horn and ran the snake through everything it would reach including as far down the bell as it would go (the snake would not reach all the way to the third valve casing).
It was a little better but still not 100%. The question was "How to reach the last couple of inches of the tubing right before it entered the third valve casing?"
What I ended up doing was this: I have a central vacuum system in my home. It's powerful enough to suck up a stray cat. So, I removed the third valve and the placed the wand from my central vacuum system into the bell. The wand is plastic so it wouldn't damage anything on the horn. Then I flipped the switch. The wand sealed against the inside of the bell and there was a prompt sound of something being sucked out of the horn.
Problem solved. The A now slots easily. So I'm sharing this tip with my fellow TH'ers.
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pinstriper
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Joined: 25 Sep 2013
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Location: Portlandia, OR
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Have you seen your cat lately ?
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| pinstriper wrote: | | Have you seen your cat lately ? |
I have a trumpet playing friend who has a postcard on his refrigerator with a picture of a cat standing up on its hind legs with the caption "And they made her dance until she coughed up her hair balls." The quote is then credited to a faux publication "Cat Torturing Through The Ages."
I'll check the central vacuum bin to see if I can find my cat. Thanks for the reminder that I need to look. The dogs have seemed to be pretty bored recently. That should have been a clue that something is missing.
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Isn't a trombone snake long enough? |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | Isn't a trombone snake long enough? |
No, I bought one and it still wasn't long enough. Also, the brushes were too big. I cut one of the brushes down so it would go through the tubing but it would usually stop a couple of inches short of coming into the third valve casing (sometimes if I was very persistent/lucky it would barely poke into the third valve casing but I think that happened only one time).
I contacted Tim Wendt ("The Best Damn Trumpet Lead Pipe Swab Period") and asked him if he had anything that would work. He told me that he tried to develop something that would work but that he had not been successful.
There is a real need for an extra long trumpet snake that's easy to use. The standard snake would be fine if it was just a lot longer.
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maynard-46
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Joined: 25 Oct 2002
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Location: GEORGIA
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:54 am Post subject: flugelhorn-cleaning hard to get places |
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I've used this for MANY years and it works great!
https://www.wwbw.com/Reka-Trumpet-Cornet-Flugelhorn-Cleaning-Kit-470918-470918000000000.wwbw?rNtt=trumpet%20cleaning%20supplies&index=2
For flugel...put the hard ball end thru the lower port of the 3rd valve casing. Push it all the way around the horn and it will come out the bell. Grab that end...pull hard and it will clean everything from the 3rd branch/past the water key (where there's always alot of muck)/and the bell branch.
For trumpet...same thing BUT put the hard ball end thru the bottom port of the FIRST valve...run it till it comes out the bell...pull hard and ur bell branch/bell will be clean!
Good luck!
Butch
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:10 am Post subject: Re: flugelhorn-cleaning hard to get places |
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| maynard-46 wrote: | I've used this for MANY years and it works great!
https://www.wwbw.com/Reka-Trumpet-Cornet-Flugelhorn-Cleaning-Kit-470918-470918000000000.wwbw?rNtt=trumpet%20cleaning%20supplies&index=2
For flugel...put the hard ball end thru the lower port of the 3rd valve casing. Push it all the way around the horn and it will come out the bell. Grab that end...pull hard and it will clean everything from the 3rd branch/past the water key (where there's always alot of muck)/and the bell branch.
For trumpet...same thing BUT put the hard ball end thru the bottom port of the FIRST valve...run it till it comes out the bell...pull hard and ur bell branch/bell will be clean!
Good luck!
Butch |
I have something similar to this but I can't get the ball to thread all the way through. It hangs up in the bends and I can't push it through.
Now that I have this new system all I have to do is remove the third valve, stick the wand in the bell and flip the switch. Simple. And if I need a swab all I'll have to do is also remove the third bottom valve cap and hold the bottom of the third valve casing over a stray cat as I flip the switch.
Yankee ingenuity at work!
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Using high pressure suction via a central vacuum or compressed air may remove large blockages that are not stuck to the tubing wall. But as far as really cleaning out the gunk, a brush or swab is what's called for.
Do any of the repairmen here want to weigh in? What do the flugelhorn manufacturers do? |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | Using high pressure suction via a central vacuum or compressed air may remove large blockages that are not stuck to the tubing wall. But as far as really cleaning out the gunk, a brush or swab is what's called for.
Do any of the repairmen here want to weigh in? What do the flugelhorn manufacturers do? |
For the rest of the horn the snake works fine and I can get to all except about the last couple of inches of the bell section with the snake, too. It's that last couple of inches that's the problem and the vac worked great to clear that out sufficiently to make the horn play well again.
The vac is going to really be most effective only on the bell section since that's the only part of the horn the wand fits into so that it seals and the suction is 100%.
One interesting thing: The vac got out something in one shot that was impeding the Amado that multiple tries with the snake didn't get. The drainage is vastly improved. So, in that respect, the vac was far more effective than the snake.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Hi
Maybe I'm being thick, as I haven't my flugel in front of me, but rather from down the bell, can't you remove the third valve cap, bend the top of the wire of the snake and push the brush into where the bell joins the third slide. I know that you can't get round as far as the bell flare, but maybe you can clean part way round from going in through the bell, and part way round from going in the third valve, hopefully covering the whole bell tubing section. Probably I should do, but I've never tried snaking the bell of my flugel.
I guess that the trumpet H W Brass Saver chord is too short for a flugel, but I haven't personally tried it.
All the best
Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
Maybe I'm being thick, as I haven't my flugel in front of me, but rather from down the bell, can't you remove the third valve cap, bend the top of the wire of the snake and push the brush into where the bell joins the third slide. I know that you can't get round as far as the bell flare, but maybe you can clean part way round from going in through the bell, and part way round from going in the third valve, hopefully covering the whole bell tubing section. Probably I should do, but I've never tried snaking the bell of my flugel.
I guess that the trumpet H W Brass Saver chord is too short for a flugel, but I haven't personally tried it.
All the best
Lou |
Once you bend the brush to get it into the tube it retains that angle which makes it difficult to push it farther through the tube. There's also the issue of putting things in through the valve casing that could scratch/score the inside surface of the valve casing.
In my case the vacuum was an instantaneous fix and, as I said in my prior post, it got things out in 2 seconds that the snake missed after multiple tries (the snake easily reached beyond the Amado so it did everything it could do in that area).
So, why mess with something that works as well as this did and, in addition, was so extremely quick and simple? Admittedly, my central vac is a hurricane (it's two units in tandem) so this might not work with something less but it worked so well for me that I wanted to share it with others who may have the same problem.
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zaferis
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Location: Beavercreek, OH
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Trombone snake / HW BrassSaver for Trombone.
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | | Trombone snake / HW BrassSaver for Trombone. |
I have one of this design and it won't thread through the bell section all the way to the third valve casing. As soon as the plastic ball meets resistance (from either direction) it stops and the plastic cord isn't stiff enough to push it along farther.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
Maybe I'm being thick, as I haven't my flugel in front of me, but rather from down the bell, can't you remove the third valve cap, bend the top of the wire of the snake and push the brush into where the bell joins the third slide. I know that you can't get round as far as the bell flare, but maybe you can clean part way round from going in through the bell, and part way round from going in the third valve, hopefully covering the whole bell tubing section. Probably I should do, but I've never tried snaking the bell of my flugel.
I guess that the trumpet H W Brass Saver chord is too short for a flugel, but I haven't personally tried it.
All the best
Lou |
Once you bend the brush to get it into the tube it retains that angle which makes it difficult to push it farther through the tube. There's also the issue of putting things in through the valve casing that could scratch/score the inside surface of the valve casing.
Fair enough, it was just a suggestion.
In my case the vacuum was an instantaneous fix and, as I said in my prior post, it got things out in 2 seconds that the snake missed after multiple tries (the snake easily reached beyond the Amado so it did everything it could do in that area).
I'm very glad to hear that it worked. I cannot imagine what ended up in the bell section.
So, why mess with something that works as well as this did and, in addition, was so extremely quick and simple? Admittedly, my central vac is a hurricane (it's two units in tandem) so this might not work with something less but it worked so well for me that I wanted to share it with others who may have the same problem.
Fair enough. Thanks very much for sharing.
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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dstpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn - Cleaning Hard To Reach Places |
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This is long, but remember: No one is forcing you to read this. (What are you doing with your CV-19 downtime and you can’t practice because family is sleeping?)
| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | ...I have a central vacuum system in my home. It's powerful enough to suck up a stray cat.... |
My sister and brother-in-law built a house years ago with one of those vacuum cleaners, and I thought it was the coolest thing. Probably not many of us have one, especially one that has that kind of suction. So what would we use?
1. I have a Rainbow vacuum cleaner to which I can connect the hose to the opposite side of the canister and "blow" clean air, but I don't think it would be enough force to dislodge what you've described.
2. A pressure washer that isn't too powerful might be an option.
3. An air compressor might be another...but not sure about this one...could force whatever is lodged to be flung against the inside of the 3rd v/c and create damage to its inner wall. The pressure washer could do the same.
4. One THer has mentioned in threads about using a steamer to clean trumpets. I have an industrial steamer that I've thought of using to really get buildup out of older horns I get on trade, but I know you have to hold the horn with a thick towel due to the heat...probably best done in a bathtub for runoff, unless you have a large sink basin. On vintage instruments, you'd have to be careful about the finish from the heat, I imagine, and not to allow direct steam on the finish anywhere on any instrument. But the right amount of heated water will dissolve pretty much any deposits inside a horn.
Steam Cleaner VX 5000:
http://steam-cleaners-direct.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwqdn1BRBREiwAEbZcR9V94RX4J1cIYF5Je2YuWV3_6no-sGhblN4NlcIg9lBjxRJbbUXyoRoCq1EQAvD_BwE
5. Putting the horn (sans valves) in a a bathtub of hot water, draining and adding more hot water over several minutes might loosen it enough to get one of the following through…
6. An HW Products flugelhorn swab reaches fine. In fact I used it last week, so that's always an option…if you can get the ball portion to push through the buildup.
https://hwproducts.com/brasswinds/hw-brass-saver-for-flugelhorn/
7. Another option is to take it to a brass repair tech. In America most shops have ultrasonic cleaners that can help break down most all of that buildup. However, I messaged two boutique trumpet builders outside the U.S. this year, both of whom said that they would never use them. (These are builders of pro level horns that are played all over the world.) They say that these devices weaken solder joints on a microscopic level, negatively impacting structural integrity, and can create serious damage to finishes. I also know brass repair techs that will not use them, namely because they’ve seen lacquer just peal off of horns, and yes, following all guidelines (no heat, minimal time in the tank, et al). How did we ever survive before they were introduced to musical instrument repair facilities?! They certainly weren’t originally designed for our industry. My inquiry to these people came from my own negative experience in recent months. Thus…
I recently sold my Hornady sonic cleaner (originally designed for shotgun barrels, but I could fit most all of a B-flat trumpet except for a small portion of the bell flare) and told the buyer–a raw brass Monette player–to never use the heat feature (which I never used) and to treat horns no longer than two minutes! I had used it on a vintage Evette and Schaefer and my one-year-old custom Eclipse C trumpet earlier this year. Both of them are silver plated, and it caused the plating to partially peal and flake off of the inside of the bell flare. These horns were only in the tank for five minutes, and they are now being prepped (bells removed) to send to Anderson for replating.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cli14q24y4jq1pr/Eclipse%20C%20bell-silver%20plate%20issue-01.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8mqf5qv4gk4tcen/Eclipse%20C%20bell-silver%20plate%20issue-02.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zc7m4leysdbsf4/Evette%20and%20Schaeffer-09.jpg?dl=0
I will personally try to avoid ever putting a horn in a sonic cleaner…EVER! But I’m told that even Anderson uses them to degrease horns prior to plating! Ugh! Can’t get away from this!
Not sure what other options might be out there for this kind of an issue other than becoming overly meticulous with personal hygiene!…dental floss, WaterPik, electric toothbrush, tongue scraper, blotting brush, +more, to eliminate as much as possible going into my horns before I play! |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
Maybe I'm being thick, as I haven't my flugel in front of me, but rather from down the bell, can't you remove the third valve cap, bend the top of the wire of the snake and push the brush into where the bell joins the third slide. I know that you can't get round as far as the bell flare, but maybe you can clean part way round from going in through the bell, and part way round from going in the third valve, hopefully covering the whole bell tubing section. Probably I should do, but I've never tried snaking the bell of my flugel.
I guess that the trumpet H W Brass Saver chord is too short for a flugel, but I haven't personally tried it.
All the best
Lou |
Once you bend the brush to get it into the tube it retains that angle which makes it difficult to push it farther through the tube. There's also the issue of putting things in through the valve casing that could scratch/score the inside surface of the valve casing.
Fair enough, it was just a suggestion.
In my case the vacuum was an instantaneous fix and, as I said in my prior post, it got things out in 2 seconds that the snake missed after multiple tries (the snake easily reached beyond the Amado so it did everything it could do in that area).
I'm very glad to hear that it worked. I cannot imagine what ended up in the bell section.
So, why mess with something that works as well as this did and, in addition, was so extremely quick and simple? Admittedly, my central vac is a hurricane (it's two units in tandem) so this might not work with something less but it worked so well for me that I wanted to share it with others who may have the same problem.
Fair enough. Thanks very much for sharing.
Best wishes
Lou |
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Thanks Lou.
I'm trying this on all my horns. You don't really need to remove anything. First, run some water through the horn or just play it for awhile to soften up the sludge. Next, stick the wand into the bell, flip the switch and then work the valves. If it's sludge it's absolutely, positively coming out in a matter of seconds. Once again, though, my central vacuum is a hurricane in terms of suction/force. If you're working with something less powerful your results might not be the same as mine (but it's so easy it's worth a try).
With over 50 horns in my collection it sure beats disassembling everything and working on one part at a time. It may not be a perfect system but it was super effective on my Adams F2 flugelhorn. The horn went from "squirrelly" to "plays like new" in 5 seconds. Problem solved. Frustration gone.
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Tony Scodwell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1961
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:10 am Post subject: Flugel cleaning |
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Anybody remember the product called "SpitBalls"? A simple foam ball that you blew through the horn with all valves depressed.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
Maybe I'm being thick, as I haven't my flugel in front of me, but rather from down the bell, can't you remove the third valve cap, bend the top of the wire of the snake and push the brush into where the bell joins the third slide. I know that you can't get round as far as the bell flare, but maybe you can clean part way round from going in through the bell, and part way round from going in the third valve, hopefully covering the whole bell tubing section. Probably I should do, but I've never tried snaking the bell of my flugel.
I guess that the trumpet H W Brass Saver chord is too short for a flugel, but I haven't personally tried it.
All the best
Lou |
Once you bend the brush to get it into the tube it retains that angle which makes it difficult to push it farther through the tube. There's also the issue of putting things in through the valve casing that could scratch/score the inside surface of the valve casing.
Fair enough, it was just a suggestion.
In my case the vacuum was an instantaneous fix and, as I said in my prior post, it got things out in 2 seconds that the snake missed after multiple tries (the snake easily reached beyond the Amado so it did everything it could do in that area).
I'm very glad to hear that it worked. I cannot imagine what ended up in the bell section.
So, why mess with something that works as well as this did and, in addition, was so extremely quick and simple? Admittedly, my central vac is a hurricane (it's two units in tandem) so this might not work with something less but it worked so well for me that I wanted to share it with others who may have the same problem.
Fair enough. Thanks very much for sharing.
Best wishes
Lou |
|
Thanks Lou.
I'm trying this on all my horns. You don't really need to remove anything. First, run some water through the horn or just play it for awhile to soften up the sludge. Next, stick the wand into the bell, flip the switch and then work the valves. If it's sludge it's absolutely, positively coming out in a matter of seconds. Once again, though, my central vacuum is a hurricane in terms of suction/force. If you're working with something less powerful your results might not be the same as mine (but it's so easy it's worth a try).
With over 50 horns in my collection it sure beats disassembling everything and working on one part at a time. It may not be a perfect system but it was super effective on my Adams F2 flugelhorn. The horn went from "squirrelly" to "plays like new" in 5 seconds. Problem solved. Frustration gone. |
Introducing moisture to a central vacuum system is a bad idea. The damp sludge is no good for the vacuum motor, filters, and related mechanicals. The sludge will tend to get trapped in crevices of the flexible vacuum hose and possibly stick to the walls of the thin wall pvc piping that runs inside the house wall back to the central vacuum unit. Once it dries, good luck trying to remove it. |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
Maybe I'm being thick, as I haven't my flugel in front of me, but rather from down the bell, can't you remove the third valve cap, bend the top of the wire of the snake and push the brush into where the bell joins the third slide. I know that you can't get round as far as the bell flare, but maybe you can clean part way round from going in through the bell, and part way round from going in the third valve, hopefully covering the whole bell tubing section. Probably I should do, but I've never tried snaking the bell of my flugel.
I guess that the trumpet H W Brass Saver chord is too short for a flugel, but I haven't personally tried it.
All the best
Lou |
Once you bend the brush to get it into the tube it retains that angle which makes it difficult to push it farther through the tube. There's also the issue of putting things in through the valve casing that could scratch/score the inside surface of the valve casing.
Fair enough, it was just a suggestion.
In my case the vacuum was an instantaneous fix and, as I said in my prior post, it got things out in 2 seconds that the snake missed after multiple tries (the snake easily reached beyond the Amado so it did everything it could do in that area).
I'm very glad to hear that it worked. I cannot imagine what ended up in the bell section.
So, why mess with something that works as well as this did and, in addition, was so extremely quick and simple? Admittedly, my central vac is a hurricane (it's two units in tandem) so this might not work with something less but it worked so well for me that I wanted to share it with others who may have the same problem.
Fair enough. Thanks very much for sharing.
Best wishes
Lou |
|
Thanks Lou.
I'm trying this on all my horns. You don't really need to remove anything. First, run some water through the horn or just play it for awhile to soften up the sludge. Next, stick the wand into the bell, flip the switch and then work the valves. If it's sludge it's absolutely, positively coming out in a matter of seconds. Once again, though, my central vacuum is a hurricane in terms of suction/force. If you're working with something less powerful your results might not be the same as mine (but it's so easy it's worth a try).
With over 50 horns in my collection it sure beats disassembling everything and working on one part at a time. It may not be a perfect system but it was super effective on my Adams F2 flugelhorn. The horn went from "squirrelly" to "plays like new" in 5 seconds. Problem solved. Frustration gone. |
Introducing moisture to a central vacuum system is a bad idea. The damp sludge is no good for the vacuum motor, filters, and related mechanicals. The sludge will tend to get trapped in crevices of the flexible vacuum hose and possibly stick to the walls of the thin wall pvc piping that runs inside the house wall back to the central vacuum unit. Once it dries, good luck trying to remove it. |
Hello Mr. Know-it all. Seriously, do you have to whine and criticize and complain about EVERYTHING I put on TH? This is one grain of sand compared to the beach bordering the Pacific Ocean on all sides. What exactly is your PROBLEM? Get a life, man.
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dstpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Flugel cleaning |
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| Tony Scodwell wrote: | Anybody remember the product called "SpitBalls"? A simple foam ball that you blew through the horn with all valves depressed.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Yes, Tony, I use these almost every evening inside all of the horns I've played that day before packing. Excellent product. |
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