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Technique or High notes?


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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Trumpjerele wrote:
I don't like physical approaches, they fill my head with ideas that are easy to misinterpret. I have some good new books that are giving me good and different ideas.

Every musical instrument involves a physical approach. Trumpet is a highly physical instrument. If things aren't going the way you'd like, it's because of something physical.

You'll never fix your problem if you don't change the mechanics of how you're playing. Analyze what you're doing until it isn't confusing.

Post video of yourself playing.


Amen Robert,

Just playing exercises doesn't necessarily help a serious physical related matter. The great pro Chris LaBarbera (a student of Reinhardt and a very physical approach) once told me that if a student has a serious flaw in his embouchure then playing exercises to increase his range was like a sprinter in the 400 meters. Only this athlete was never told that he was running in his heels instead of his toes like he should.

In this fictional scenario the poor runner is advised to work on his breathing, and just keep on running. Well we know that such a runner will never compete effectively among his peers because of his serious foot placement and alignment. And while no track & field coach worthy of a job would ever allow his kid to continue running on his heels? Indeed I see equally screwed up embouchures on perhaps 95% of all trumpet players.

It does take a while to recreate a set of chops previously built upon an inadequate foundation. Also, an embouchure capable of 4 and a half octaves of range is by nature a trickier condition to learn. After all anyone can learn to blow good sounding low tones. However most of the time these students utilize a flabby, poorly designed chop alignment. It takes devotion to and perseverance to put together a set of chops with limitless potential.

However I can tell you that had I known someone like me back when I was in my teens or in college? I'd have listened to him. So that I could have avoided those doggone 45+ years of struggling.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We here on TH are all but a happy few, failures and I suppose that we have to learn to live with that.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Lionel wrote:


I've found that those trumpet players who tell you things like,

"I don't want high notes to mess up my fine technique"
I have never heard of a trumpet player saying something like that.

I've heard - second hand - of Allen Vizzutti supposedly saying something to the effect that his time with the Herman Band where he was having to bang out high and loud all the time was having a negative impact on his flexibility.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
Lionel wrote:


I've found that those trumpet players who tell you things like,

"I don't want high notes to mess up my fine technique"
I have never heard of a trumpet player saying something like that.

I've heard - second hand - of Allen Vizzutti supposedly saying something to the effect that his time with the Herman Band where he was having to bang out high and loud all the time was having a negative impact on his flexibility.

The far more common expression are players who choose mouthpieces that facilitate playing a bit higher but in doing so make unreasonable compromises to the other aspects of their playing. I've met far too many in my time who play shallow Schilke pieces that really shouldn't.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soulfire wrote:
dershem wrote:
Range is just another technique. If you don't have a full quiver of techniques, you're limiting yourself.


Yeah... this. High notes are another tool in your toolbox. If you're missing that tool, then there may come a time when you need it and aren't prepared. At the same time, you need a lot more than a screwdriver in your toolbox.


And too many use it as a hammer.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
Lionel wrote:


I've found that those trumpet players who tell you things like,

"I don't want high notes to mess up my fine technique"
I have never heard of a trumpet player saying something like that.

I've heard - second hand - of Allen Vizzutti supposedly saying something to the effect that his time with the Herman Band where he was having to bang out high and loud all the time was having a negative impact on his flexibility.


Yeah, except Allen probably still had more flexibility than most. He probably just could do the ridiculous acrobatics he usual can when playing too much upper register stuff. It brought him down from superhuman to human, where are for most people it takes them from human down to troll status.

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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
Is there good technique without a high developed registry?


There are trumpeters obsessed with tone quality, articulation, others with high notes.

I've always thought that there are more important things to worry about than high notes, and that they will come alone.

But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique.

Excuse my English, any idea is appreciated.


When I worried about high notes my teacher Claude Gordon would say, "Don't worry about the high notes - if you're practicing correctly they'll develop right along with the rest of the machine."

In my experience he was absolutely correct. If you know how, what and when to practice, and then you follow through and practice every day long enough for the desired development to occur, that development in terms of not just range and technique, but also power, sound, flexibility and endurance will all happen. But unfortunately, incorrect practice doesn't necessarily just lead no where, it can cause one to get worse over time.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:23 am    Post subject: technique or high notes Reply with quote

I just read his response and I have to say I agree with John Mohan completely. I had two teachers who were great players and they "always" pointed out that you learn to play the horn, as completely as you can, dealing with every technical aspect as best you can and with time you find that your upper and lower range improve. Everything is interrelated. They were right, too. And because I experienced what they said I would with work, It is MHO and good luck to anyone who embarks on the journey to just get better.
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brassman8994
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High note playing is a tool, one of many that should be in the tool box. My upper register playing was formed when I was very young marching in the Phantom Regiment. We used many of the techniques of Arnold Jacobs (breathing tubes, etc.) and the smallest mouthpiece we were allowed to use was a stock 3C. 6 years of playing lead in that group on a 1 1/2C really solitified my upper register. Another thing that really helped me was going through the Stamp warm ups everyday and a Coruso workout every other day. In my mind there is no such thing as commercial/lead players or classical players, just good trumpet players. Believe me, if Bud would have wanted to play lead in the Kenton Band he could have and if Maynard would have wanted to play principal in a major orchestra he could have. I am in the world of recording now and sometimes I have to sound like Classical guy, and the next day I will be up in the stratosphere with my hair on fire.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassman8994 wrote:
...and the smallest mouthpiece we were allowed to use was a stock 3C....

Just curious...was the mpc size limitation specified by the director or section leader, or is that something that is set by DCI?
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brassman8994
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Phantom Regiment strives (or at least used to) for the Chicago Symphony. They performed classical music so they were always looking for a dark symphonic sound so all sections were given equipment parameters of some sort. Nearly all of the sopranos were on a 3C or 1 1/2C and most of the baritones were on Schilke 51D's I believe. Best example of the CSO type of sound would be 1989, I'm a little bias on that though;)
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
At this point, I am clear that I have bad habits that I need to replace with better ones to improve many aspects of my game, range one of them.

I don't like physical approaches, they fill my head with ideas that are easy to misinterpret. I have some good new books that are giving me good and different ideas.

If none of that worked, I would need an experienced embouchure change master to guide me through the process, I can't do that alone. But today, I'd rather start with another instrument from 0 than start that torture ..


Also realize that changing bad habits and physical mechanics of sound production doesn't have to involve an embouchure change. There are many other things to try before ever tinkering with that. It does sound like you had a mismatch with your last teacher, who jumped to changing your embouchure way too quickly. All lips need to do is vibrate, and they're stuck between your teeth and the mouthpiece; there's nowhere for them to go.

Ideally you don't want to be thinking about lips while you play. Once you know how to develop your playing, you may spend a brief period each practice day just making sure your lips are doing what they should, with specific exercises good for that.l

In the meantime the greatest teacher to ever utilize a strictly non-physical approach was Bill Adam. He never wrote a book, nor an exercise. One concept he taught was "trumpet playing is 90% mental, 9 % air, and 1% everything else." This might blend well with the direction you're heading? The mental activity he encouraged most is to keep your mind in the sound; not the sound that's actually coming out of your bell, simply be aware of that. But keep your mind in the best possible sound you can imagine. Recordings help! Arturo Sandoval is a good sound model ...
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