Maintenance/Slide Questions

Phoenix864 · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: Maintenance/Slide Questions

Hi all,

I had a few small maintenance questions that I would appreciate some perspectives on.

1) Over the past few months I've been noticing grimy/grey deposits building up on my main tuning slide. The horn was purchased in January and has been cleaned three times since then, however, the grey buildup comes back relatively quickly after each cleaning. The main tuning slide doesn't see much movement (I only pull it once a day to swab it and the leadpipe), so I'm not sure exactly why this stuff is building up so quickly.

2) Even after being freshly cleaned and greased the lower leg on the main tuning slide feels 'scratchy' and rough when moving the slide. I can't see anything obvious inside the side tube that would be causing this feeling.

3) The 3rd valve slide goes through side oil like crazy. If I freshly grease it one day, by the next day it will be feeling 'frictiony' and dry. When I apply slide oil most of the oil does not stick to the slide, it just ends up on the outside of the tubing after a few actuations of the slide. It would really be nice if there is something that I can do to keep the slide moving freely for more than a day at a time.

4) Is it worth being concerned over dropping a bottom valve cap and valve stem/button/top cap? I'm wondering if a drop could have distorted one of the parts, causing some alignment issues with the valves/valve block. Being the highly coordinated person I am, I managed to drop a bottom valve cap while reassembling after a cleaning.

Just a little while later I was met with a surprise when the valve stem/button/top cap popped off the valve when I unscrewed it for oiling. Somehow the valve stem totally unscrewed itself while playing, causing it to pop off when the top cap was unscrewed.

5) The valve stem and top cap on the second valve have inconsistent spacing (ie the stem is not outright vertical with respect to the cap, instead passing through at a slight angle). This wasn't the valve that experienced the prior drama. Is something like this pretty normal, or is it worth having checked out?

I know it's quite a few questions - I would appreciate any advice for any of the questions.

harryjamesworstnightmare · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Mar 2010 Posts: 167

Is this a new horn or a used one?
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Brian James
-------------------------
King Super 20 Symphony
Bach Strad 43 Sterling Silver Plus
Getzen Proteus
Yamaha 6335HS
Olds Super
Olds Mendez
Getzen Custom 3850 Cornet
Conn 80A
Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn

Phoenix864 · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:29 am Post subject:

JayKosta · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Maintenance/Slide Questions

Phoenix864 · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Maintenance/Slide Questions

Dennis78 · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:08 pm Post subject:

All these issues are issues that are endemic to Chinese made instruments. Even my most expensive Chinese horn is still flawed in the fit and finish department
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a few different ones

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject:

I personally unscrew the valve buttons every time I clean the horn. In part to remove the felts to ensure they don’t get wet and to be able to more easily clean the bottoms.

Nothing wrong with doing it. Except if you mix up the felts, caps and buttons. Mine are numbered. Thanks James.

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

1: As your new valves wear in, there should be a significant amount of black grime produced that you will see when you wipe down the pistons. If you fully remove and reinsert the slide daily, I suppose some could be working its way onto the slide legs.
2: Could be many things that it is necessary to see the horn to diagnose - take it to a tech.
3: Could be the wrong lubricant for the job, could be too tight a fit, could be out of round, etc. - take it to a tech.
4: No.
5 (and the last part of 4): It sounds like the stem and spring box threads may be a loose fit. Critically, this may have led to cross-threading when you reassembled, resulting in a tilted stem. This is bad. Take it to that tech now.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

Phoenix864 · Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:41 pm Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph - I appreciate the advice. The grey residue is pretty unusual - it appears only on the outside of the slide tubes, on both the upper and lower legs. I would be surprised if the valves were still producing grime the horn has seen 4 months of daily playing, weeks of valve wipe-downs, and multiple baths. I plan to clean the horn soon and will check to see how much grime is on the valves.

Regarding the valve stem, it looks like I wasn't quite right - after triple-checking, it seems like the distance between the stem and the cap remains constant throughout the piston stroke. The stem looks merely to be offset. Would replacing the stem fix this? I wouldn't mind finding a reason to try some brass stems/guides on the horn.

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

Take the button off and watch the gap around the stem closely through the stroke. The gap should be reasonably even all the way around - maybe not exactly even, but close. The gap should not shift or change at all through the stroke. If indeed it remains constant, then the stem and spring box are fine, and the valve assembly is offset in the block.

I have an Olds Mendez where one casing was not straight when the block was assembled. The only challenge is to press the valve straight when that is a slightly shifted vector relative to the other two - otherwise, its like pressing with a lazy finger on one valve and promotes uneven wear and sticking. It can also be distracting (some people cannot handle the horizontally offset 2nd valve on an Olds Recording, I find the angles of the Selmer Radial valves distracting, etc.). It comes down to what you can deal with - or can't - in such cases.

Uneven pressure on one valve could contribute to producing an excess of wear grime.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

JayKosta · Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:00 am Post subject:

ken_k · Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:50 am Post subject:

I was finding a lot of blobs of light gray ?? in my valve ports and slide ends while using Hetmann products. Hetmann did not last very long either, for me. I oil valves at the end of EVERY day. I swab my leadpipe too. I am now using Ultra Pure products and no blobs. They last too. Maybe it's by body chemistry. All I know is what works for me.
_________________
Schilke 32HD Bb Trumpet
1956 Martin Committee #2
1972 Selmer Radial 75 Bb Trumpet
1976 Selmer Radial 99 C/Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 8315G Flugel
Schilke XA1 Cornet
Brasspire P7 Pocket

LittleRusty · Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:06 pm Post subject:

Phoenix864 · Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:40 pm Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph - I gave the horn a thorough cleaning today and double-checked the gap. It looks constant to me - the distance between the stem and the cap never changes throughout the stroke. The stem is just slightly closer to one side of the cap than the other (though slightly is something like 1mm, it's not a huge difference at all).

If I understand correctly, this happens when the valve insert inside the block is slightly shifted to one side (ie the Monel bit on the bottom 2/3s of the casing)? If that is the case, I'm guessing that replacement stems would not change anything.

Despite the horn being overdue for a cleaning, it was spotless on the inside. I wiped the valves down before soaking them - no grime came off. I can't imagine what's causing the grey buildup on the slides, but I don't think it's coming from the valves. I appreciate the advice - helpful and interesting as always.

JayKosta - thanks for the recommendation - the button seems to bottom out on the top cap similarly to valves 1 and 3. The horn's sound and intonation across each valve combination has been quite consistent, but I'll do some additional listening to be sure. I know additional disassembly comes with some additional risk, but it allows me to thoroughly clean/rinse the valves while preventing me from getting the felts wet.

ken_k/LittleRusty - I've heard others report that Hetman oils left slime/residue throughout the horn. I've been using Hetman oil on the horn since I bought it, but after cleaning today switched to Ultra-Pure oil. I'll have to see if the switch has any effect on buildup on the MTS and keeping the 3rd slide greased.

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

OK, so at least it is not leaning (the stem is in the same plain as another, just not both others at the same time due to pure horizontal dislocation). a 1mm offset sounds pretty minor as far as feel and wear, so I would think nothing to worry about.

I think we know the answer, but you can also try loosening the stem, rotating it 180 degrees, reinstalling and verify that the offset is still to the same side. This will verify that the stem and stem base are concentric, and that the cause is most likely a spring box set off center on the piston.

If you want everything to be "correct", I would suggest contacting Jim Becker and see if blueprinting is a viable option for you. That would address your slides and valve stem - plus who knows what else may be a bit off on the horn.

Got me on the grey stuff - maybe an issue with the lubricant vs you chemically, or something odd in the metallurgy of the slide sleeve ? Any finish wear at the grip points after 4 months?
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

JayKosta · Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:23 am Post subject:

Phoenix864 · Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:45 am Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph - Good to hear about the valve stem. I've reassembled it in several different ways and have consistently seen the 1-2mm gap. I would definitely like to get the horn blueprinted, it's something I hope to be able to do once COVID-19 has regressed.

As far the grey residue - The horn's finish isn't really showing any wear after the 4ish months I've owned it. A bit of tarnish here and there, but no pitting or holes in the plating. I'll have to see if the residue reoccurs with Ultrapure. I might also shoot an email to Schagerl, they have been responsive to answering questions in the past.

JayKosta - Do you use alcohol on the Q-tip/rag? The film is definitely surface-level, it comes off very easily.

cheiden · Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Maintenance/Slide Questions

JWG · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 257

Query: Does the grey "crud" resemble the grey/black "crud" that builds up on the bottom valve caps from the monel piston wearing against the brass of the cylinder?

That grey debris from valves breaking-in could easily migrate in condensation due to gravity from the valve block down to the third valve slide and lower-"leg" of the tuning slide whenever you leave you trumpet "bell-downward" on a trumpet stand.

I would lay the horn in its case with bottom valve caps facing down and experiment if you can get gravity to pull the grey "crud" from the valves downward to the bottom valve caps and away from the third valve slide and bottom leg of the tuning slide to see if the problem continues in the same form.

Also, whenever you see a lot of "crud" make sure to wipe down the valves, clean the cylinders with a soft cloth on a cleaning rod, and then generously oil the valves.

One trick that I have learned to clean the inside of modern "hollow" valves with enclosed springs (like most Bach, Kanstul, etc.): Remove valve buttons, oil through the hollow stem of the post to get oil into the spring box, then blow the oil through the spring box down through the inside of the valve where the three brass tubes create the ports to force debris down toward the bottom valve caps.

The first time I tried it, I found an amazing amount of material coming out from inside the piston itself. How so much black and grey crud got there, I assume that a combination of brass and monel particles, bacteria, and sugars/carbs hitchhiking on aerosols from my respiratory tract found their way in there over months and/or years.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

Sounds like your slide residue is coming from the lube or the slide sleeves. I suggest taking a radical departure and using pure lanolin oil, cut with a simple valve oil (Al Cass or Ultra Pure) to get the desired ease of movement. A drop of oil every day or two will restore that freedom as the oil dries out of the lanolin. Try this for all slides. If your issues persist with that cumbersome and messy, but really dial-able, approach, then it is not the lubrication.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20