Is it me or the horn?

[thesplitmeister]

Hi all,
I hope you’re all ok during this crazy time. Here in the UK I wanted to use this break from work to acclimatise myself more with the C trumpet with Bb being my go to instrument for 99% of work. I have a Yamaha YTR 8335 (2) which I bought a few years ago to replace a Bach that was to beaten up to continue. It’s responsive and great over range and paired with the right mouthpiece it doesn’t feel too bright which it did to start with.

Here’s my question though is to do with the dreaded G above the staff and notes around it. I know this is a bright partial and effects most trumpets but it seems particularly bad with this one. With the tuning out I can lip it down to “close” which is hard work but doable but to lip it right into the centre of the tuner the sound is really compromised. So....is it me just needing more time to acclimatise to the C? Is it the trumpet and if so is there a tweaking option rather than having to replace it (tapping it, changing leadpipe etc) or is it a mouthpiece thing?

What have you found if you are primarily a C trumpet player because surely you don’t have to work this hard to cope with notes around there!
Best wishes
Jim

[Trumpetingbynurture]

The first thing to try would be a mouthpiece with an open backbore and #24 (or larger) throat. You could also try a mouthpiece with a shorter shank.

I'd maybe try a stork mouthpiece or something like a picket brass piece with their C-length backbore.

I've only played one in a shop and not for any length of time. I was on a GR mouthpiece and it was sharp on the G as well, but it was only a medium depth mouthpiece, so not really suited to a C trumpet.
I have played a couple of C trumpets using my Marcink Claude Gordon mouthpiece and the intonation is usually much easier to play in tune with that piece, which does have an open throat (#22), backbore and a little shorter length.

[Tpt_Guy]

What model is your C?

I would second the mouthpiece suggestion, though my experience with short shank mouthpieces is a little different. I find short shank mouthpieces to drive that partial even further sharp. Haven't tried every short shank mouthpiece in existence, so this isn't the final word.

Your mileage may vary.
_________________
-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee

[abontrumpet]

Third-ing the mouthpiece.

At least a 25 throat (the 25 is coming into vogue a bit now) and I think a 24 is plenty and wouldn't go much bigger (personally). Also an "orchestral" or 24 style backbore.

Without those, in my opinion, it's twice the battle.

FWIW: I wouldn't bother with short shank.

[thesplitmeister]

Thanks for your responses guys. In answer to the questions the model of the trumpet is in the original post I believe, I think it’s a second series Xeno but the YTR number I have will probably tell you more. I’ve been using a GR 67.4 with it which I thought had a large throat and backbore combo but I can’t find the specs anywhere, I have a Pickett Ridenour with a large throat I’ll experiment with that and have been tempted by the Yamaha Tom Hooten mouthpiece which sounds like it would balance too. Ideally I’d love to use my C a lot more of symphonic playing as I really think it would work for me but it’s not been my background so am easing in slowly!

[delano]

It's a little bit confusing, the YTR 8335 is definitely a Bflat horn. The C-Xeno will be the YTR8445, the first 4 means C tuning, the second 4 means large bore.
BTW the type numbering will be on the valve casing, I presume.

[shofarguy]

Over the years, several things have been written here about C trumpets. I remember some posters addressing alternative fingerings saying that combinations that are different from Bb fingerings are just C fingerings and shouldn't be considered "alternate." Others seemed to think that C trumpets simply weren't as inherently good with intonation as Bb trumpets.

Here in the USA, James Becker of Osmun Music has developed a regimen of corrective measures that address the shortcomings of volume production. Horns that he (and others that do similar work) sets up reportedly play with better intonation, response and resonance.

Myself, I have only sampled C trumpets on a dozen or so occasions. Most of these were Kanstul or Kanstul-built trumpets such as the 1510, 1510-A, 1410, their rotary model (# escapes me, right now), 1510-B that was in essence the Destino C and the Flip Oakes C trumpet. Those that emulated Bach models had similarly challenging intonation patterns. Those that were developed outside of those design parameters had better intonation, but perhaps a different enough sound that the buying public never embraced them to any great extent.

So, I think that the first place to look would be the condition of your particular horn. If there are any technicians in the UK that perform remedial services like valve alignments, bore corrections, etc., my experience is that these measures produce real results and are worth the money. In my opinion, practicing with an instrument that is less than optimum means one's results will be less than optimum.

After that, I think it would be good to search out a C trumpet player who can help you understand how to best approach that instrument. Mouthpiece choice is certainly a key component to your success.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[thesplitmeister]

100% my mistake on the YTR number. I didn’t have my trumpet to hand when writing the post and so went off a message the seller had sent me when I initially bought it, he must have done a typo and I didn’t notice. It’s a Yamaha YTR 84456 in lacquer and it’s ex demo so I’ve effectively had it since new.

[JayKosta]

First thing I suggest is you do a simple 'test playing' for valve alignment.
Try all the valve combinations from low notes to high. You want to learn if some valve combinations have a less good sound, or if the 'blowing feel' is different.
Yes, that all changes slightly with different valve combinations, but there shouldn't be any big changes or surprises.

If you notices that some particular valves or valve combinations have trouble, then investigate if valve alignment is the problem.

And yes, do it by actual playing; how the valve ports look and measure is secondary.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[JJMDestino]

When there are issues like that on a horn the first things I would check is valve alignment and gap. After that is sorted I would try a little more open throat/backbore on the C.

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Seeing as it is the open G, you could also try loosening of the valve caps slightly, one by one and see if it changes. That would let you know if it's the upstroke that is off.

[Andy Cooper]

I seem to remember a good bit of Trumpet Herald discussion on Yamaha mouthpiece to Yamaha trumpet optimal gap which I believe to be less than you would get with a typical Bach. I think GR is aware of the issue and can probably assist.

Here is one of the discussions:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=141180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

If all else fails, I swear that a silver dime in the bottom of my third valve cap improves the intonation...

[cheiden]

[AJCarter]

C trumpets typically have a very nasty 5th partial. I would be careful about the mouthpiece as that could potentially exacerbate the problem. Do lots of research and speak with makers before plunking down the money.
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(List horns here)