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nonchalant Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2017 Posts: 34
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps greedy was not the best choice of words. I guess I was wondering if it is still worth doing if you like the horn. Has anyone had an experience where they had a great horn aligned and then did not like it as much as before? Is there any reason not to have an alignment?
As I mentioned I'm looking at a new to me C and my first inclination was when I get it I'll send it straight for an alignment and I will have the holy grail of C trumpets! I haven't heard of anyone personally that did not have a good experience when they've had an alignment, but then mayhaps I've thought about it too much. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2412 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Valve alignment or greedy? |
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kehaulani wrote: | TrumpetMD wrote: | I got an alignment on one of my horns. . the valves made more noise . . I also had a problem with one of the valves sticking, which likely was in part was due to the age of the valves, but which resolved after reversing the valve alignment. |
One feature of forums is the sharing of information that will benefit the members. You could save some members a lot of grief, Mike, if you would tell where you had the valve work done. |
It was a local tech in the Maryland area. I'd rather not say publicly. But I'm happy respond to any private messages. Of course, my experiences are not definitive in any way, and I qualified that the age of the valves may have been a contributing factor. But I also didn't like the way the valves felt or sounded, bumping against hard rubber washers instead of felt washers.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Pete and Christopher for sharing your positive experience with our Osmun precision valve alignment service. It’s folks like you that spread the good word, and I greatly appreciate it.
As for C trumpets, we have an already blueprinted Bach C180L22925H abvailable. Also the C19022925M we could blueprint. This would save you the trouble of sending it back for these adjustments.
I hope this is helpful. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 722 Location: Rhode Island, USA
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:40 am Post subject: ?Valve Alignment? |
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nonchalant wrote: | Is there any reason not to have an alignment?
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Not that I can think of. I've had two horns aligned by James Becker at Osmun Music. Both played well before and better after. _________________ Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience. |
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larryspencermusic Regular Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I'll be the one to post that in my experience, a PVA isn't necessarily the best thing for every horn. I've had 3 horns with PVA done that I not only didn't see a positive difference but an actual negative difference! TO ME! There was nothing wrong with the PVA, it was done perfectly. The horns played fine when I sent them (to a well known and great shop), and I didn't like them as much afterwards. Mind you, these are subtle differences and actually have little to do with sound in front of the horn but how it feels. I checked with a borescope and mirror. It just didn't feel right to me. I just don't think perfect alignment is always the answer. I'm also not saying that I'm right and you're (whoever) is wrong. I have many colleagues that won't play a horn without a PVA. They're not wrong, they're great players. I play several horns that I purposely and methodically put slightly out of alignment with pads and felts because it feels better for that horn FOR ME. I find all of this interesting, I really do, but the reason to go through all of this is to play MUSIC, above all.
To open another teenie weenie can of worms, does everybody "clock" their mouthpiece alignment? And mouthpiece to lead pipe Gap?
Larry Spencer, Dallas TX
Olds Recording
B&S eXquisite C & Bb
Adams Flugel
Jupiter piccolo
King SilverTone Cornet
Reeves and Pickett Mouthpieces
40+years free-lance pro |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 934 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:31 am Post subject: |
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All my horns have Bob Reeves Valve Alignments except for the herald trumpet, which I don't want to spend the money on. It made the most difference on my Schilke P5-4 piccolo because it has four valves and a couple of the valves were off. I had it done immediately to the Claude Gordon Selmer Bb I play all the time and I could tell a slightly improvement regarding the slotting and centering or resonance of the horn. I have played essentially the same mouthpiece and trumpet since 1984 and know the CG Selmer really well. It was worth the money.
I recommend Bob Reeves because the material he uses for the pads doesn't compress or swell like other materials. Rubber will expand with oil and felt with compress changing the alignment over time. Reeves will replace pads for I think $10. I usually pickup a new set every year or two at ITG.
Reeves has his way of taking the measurements and says he's accurate to .001". There are many factors that make just looking at the alignment that makes it hard to do with your eye.
The holes most always don't match exactly in size, shape, diameter and spacing from each other. Companies that use a CNC to bore the holes in the valves and casing have an advantage because a computer is usually accurate to .0001". The error factor comes from assembly and sloppy solder jobs and other things that can throw off the alignment.
What Reeves does is measure from various points and then make adjustments by shaving a couple thousandths of an inch from four places get the up and down strokes on. This is done on the top of valve stem, the underside of the valve buttons, the top edge of of valve casing, and the cap that goes on the valve casing. By doing that the up stroke can be made lower or higher, and the down stroke made lower or higher, respectively with the adjustment locations.
Claude Gordon used to point out that people will spend all this money on a valve alignment and then rest their fingers on the valves or not push them down all the way and defeat the purpose of the alignment. That's why he would stress the Lift Fingers High Strike Valves Hard thing. It's not just for making the fingers work better but it effects the alignment, which effects the response and efficiency of the horn, which effects breath control and other things.
Get a Reeves alignment! It's totally worth it.
Lift Fingers High, Strike Valves Hard!
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:09 am Post subject: |
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larryspencermusic wrote: | To open another teenie weenie can of worms, does everybody "clock" their mouthpiece alignment? And mouthpiece to lead pipe Gap?
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The answer to these questions are yes, and yes. I’m not saying this to upset anyone, just that it amazes me how sensitive some players really are. We’re fortunate that the folks we catered to appreciate the subtle difference these seemingly insignificant changes make for them.
And though is may appear I’m hard selling these ideas, I didn’t invent them on my own, just following the lead of those that came before me. I make it no secret that I participate on these forums in order to inform, and hopefully earn your trust so you send work my way. As those that earn a living blowing their horn, a little self promotion is part of the gig.
So if in the end you’re happy with how your equipment is working for you, by all means stick with it. For those of you that seek more from your gear, we’re here to help.
My two cents. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I found that valve alignments made a huge difference in most of my horns. But it was most dramatic on my flugelhorn. Since it's such a small bore, even a little bit of misalignment has a dramatic effect on flugels. It was night and day!
I absolutely HATED messing with mouthpiece gap, and I've never noticed anything with clocking mouthpieces, even as I understand that they really work for other people. Whatever works for you! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Spend a little time with a mouthpiece cut for sleeves and a good selection of sleeves and guarantee you will learn how poorly a horn will play if the gap is to far from optimum. And as you experiment you will very likely find that a particular gap works best and that may or may not be the stock provided gap.
There was a time when played more frequently and I clocked. Playing less often I'm not as sensitive to it so I don't bother. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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larryspencermusic wrote: | ......
To open another teenie weenie can of worms, does everybody "clock" their mouthpiece alignment? ........ |
I have and do, why not? It’s a quick simple adjustment, I do think it sometimes improves, albeit slightly, the response.
And if it’s placebo, so what? If it SEEMS to help it probably does.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Is "clocking" your mouthpiece the same thing as "adjusting the gap"? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Clocking is the term for rotating the mouthpiece in the receiver to a spot where the horn seems to respond better. Some players I trust make a point to always insert the mouthpiece into the receiver in the exact same position to minimize inconsistencies. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Is "clocking" your mouthpiece the same thing as "adjusting the gap"? |
No, it involves trying different rotational positions of your mouthpiece in the mouthpiece receiver to find the sweet spot.
You start by selecting a mark, say the model number i.e. 3C at the top, we’ll call that 12 o’clock. Play for a bit then rotate 90 degrees to 3 o’clock, then 6 and 9. Return to the best playing position then rotate 45 degrees in either direction. Once you’ve located the optimum position place it there every time after that. By doing so eliminates the guesswork and provides consistency from one day to the next.
You may wonder why this makes sense. In machinist terms, any deviation off dead center is called run out. And while mouthpiece makers do their best to maintain concentricity, and instrument builders do their best to mount receivers on center, there can be deviations from dead center. By trying different orientations you can dial in the two to agree where they line up best.
This is a widely practiced habit of some world class brass players.
I hope that answers the question. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes the standard "up and down" adjustment is insufficient. After having that done to my Bach Commercial Trumpet, and still not being happy with it, I had a rotational adjustment made. That is definitely not a DIY job and involves unsoldering the spring housings, realigning them, and resoldering them. It made the difference in my keeping the horn rather than selling it.
Get a price quote. It can be pricey.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7010 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Clocking is interesting.
A number of my mouthpieces are also cut for sleeves. I use a selection of Reeves Sleeves, but always end up with my #6 or #6.5.
My mouthpieces, except for one, are Flip Oakes models. The other is a modular Kanstul.
One day, a couple of years ago, I tried clocking all of the mouthpieces I use in my trumpet and flugelhorn. I used 45 degree increments. Each mouthpiece had a certain single position that centered and slotted best. Some pieces were very obvious, while others less so.
The curiouser thing was that the sleeves ALSO responded to clocking. I chose to clock the sleeve first by rotating it on the mouthpiece in 45 degree increments while keeping the mouthpiece oriented the same way in relationship to the horn. Then, I clocked the mouthpiece in the sleeve without rotating the sleeve in relationship to the horn.
It's easy to remember the position of the sleeve, but some of the mouthpieces I've forgotten how best to clock... _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for clearing it up, guys. I'm afraid that is a little more esoteric than would do me any good. Nice to know what we're talking about, though. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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JHirakawa Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2022 Posts: 155
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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The valves on my Olds Custom Crafted 37117 were way out of whack when I bought it. The previous owner had in pads that were way off on the up and down strokes. That could be why she sold it so cheap. I have an inexpensive Chinese boroscope that I can fish down the 1st and 3rd valve tubes and through the tubes between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valves. I can see how at least one of the valve ports line up with the tubes on the up stroke and down stroke on each valve so I thought I had it pretty close. The horn still played bad. I need to get some work done on a Benge I recently acquired so I took the Olds in to get a PVA at the same time. Joe Loeffler did the work. Joe used to work for Dr Valve and was highly recommended by him. WOW! Whatever Joe did, it worked. The Olds Custom 37117 is designed as a lightweight Mendez. Now it plays like it's designed to play. Even though I was able to align one port on each valve dead center in up and down position, other ports that I couldn't see must have been out of whack. Infamous Olds QC perhaps? Joe somehow found the optimum solution to get the best results. If you don't like how your horn is playing, a PVA by someone who knows what he's doing could be well worth the cost. _________________ Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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JHirakawa Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2022 Posts: 155
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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My 1948 Chicago Benge looked like it had the original pads on it when I got it. Joe cleaned it, removed some dents, fixed a loose slide tube, and did a few other tweeks. Getting the right alignment on an old Benge can be tricky. Joe got it playing sooo sweet.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1947_Chicago_Benge_Trumpet.jpg _________________ Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1543 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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My experience with PVA is all positive. On a really great horn it made the least difference (probably pretty much in line already), but the replacement of stock felts with synthetic ones that do not crush means it maintains the alignment better over time. Recently when buying a used horn, I look for ones with PVA already done or ask for it as a part of the deal. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I had my 72* aligned by a nationally known guy (not Jim Becker). I didn’t notice much, if any, playing difference but now the 2nd valve clacks like a Model T and the cap on that valve doesn’t tighten firmly; it just sort of gets harder to turn. It’s up to me to decide when it’s enough.
I’m not sure the work can be reversed. One of these days, maybe I’ll send it to Jim and let him do his thing.
John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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