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Valve alignment or greedy?


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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
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Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jengstrom wrote:
I had my 72* aligned by a nationally known guy (not Jim Becker). I didn’t notice much, if any, playing difference but now the 2nd valve clacks like a Model T and the cap on that valve doesn’t tighten firmly; it just sort of gets harder to turn. It’s up to me to decide when it’s enough.


Just getting clarification. The top valve cap right? Not the finger button? If it it the top valve cap, try cleaning the threads on the casing and the cap. Check to see if the male or female threads have been damaged. The cap should tighten all of the way down for the alignment to be correct. This would affect the entire horn not just notes using the 2nd valve

If it's the valve button, remove the button and check inside of the stem with a flashlight. Is there a set screw installed?

Consider contacting the repair person and give them a chance to fix the problem. Successful businesses generally want satisfied customers.
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jengstrom
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Joined: 15 Sep 2008
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Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
jengstrom wrote:
I had my 72* aligned by a nationally known guy (not Jim Becker). I didn’t notice much, if any, playing difference but now the 2nd valve clacks like a Model T and the cap on that valve doesn’t tighten firmly; it just sort of gets harder to turn. It’s up to me to decide when it’s enough.


Just getting clarification. The top valve cap right? Not the finger button? If it it the top valve cap, try cleaning the threads on the casing and the cap. Check to see if the male or female threads have been damaged. The cap should tighten all of the way down for the alignment to be correct. This would affect the entire horn not just notes using the 2nd valve

If it's the valve button, remove the button and check inside of the stem with a flashlight. Is there a set screw installed?

Consider contacting the repair person and give them a chance to fix the problem. Successful businesses generally want satisfied customers.


Yes, the top cap, not the finger button. And I’ve done all the things you mention. The guy who did it is out of state and I’m not going to ship it back to him. I understand what you said about the moving alignment. That’s why I’m so disappointed with the outcome. There is no one in upstate NY I would trust with it. If I do anything, I’ll send it to Osmun and let Jim Becker blueprint it. I really like the horn. Fortunately, it doesn’t play any worse than it did before the alignment, and it played pretty darn well out of the box. That’s why I bought it.

John
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jengstrom wrote:
... but now the 2nd valve clacks like a Model T and the cap on that valve doesn’t tighten firmly; it just sort of gets harder to turn. ...

------------
Check to see if there is an o-ring inside the top cap - it might have been installed to limit the amount of down-stroke.

If that's the situation it might be possible to find a smaller thickness o-ring and to use a thin felt under the cap to give the same down-stroke and to stop the clack. It might also be possible to find / make some type of spacer to replace the flexible o-ring.
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Danbassin
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Joined: 13 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An anecdote about modifying a horn you already love:

When Rafael Mendez had his signature model made by Olds, he demanded a faithful reproduction of the faithful French Besson he had played throughout his career. The story goes that when he played the first prototypes, he really didn’t like them. When the techs (I wish I knew who, not just for the purpose of this infamous story) heard him play the Mendez model back-to-back with the Besson it was modeled after, they realized that the great maestro’s problem didn’t stem from an inaccurate measurement of leadpipe or Venturi or bore or bell…it all came down to the fact that these new instruments had (excellent) tolerances in the valves that the vintage warhorse he’d grown accustomed to couldn’t compete with. My understanding of the conclusion of this story is that Mednez was ultimately given a horn whose valves had been over-lapped and fit more loosely than Olds would have ever otherwise let leave the factory floor for sale. However, this new horn with his name on it now more closely resembled the blow and response qualities he had grown to love.

Happy practicing!
-DB
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Daniel Bassin
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I play:
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For most of my life I wasn't big on valve alignments. Either the horn worked, or it didn't. But now I believe one of the ways to optimize a horn is with a valve alignment. It's also a good idea to have the tubes and slides checked for excess solder (to be cleaned out with a reaming tool), which can negatively affect airflow. This can enhance a horn at least as much as a valve alignment.

One more thing - felt is the worst! It's unstable material as it doesn't hold its shape. A valve cluster with felts is guaranteed to need a valve alignment. Manufacturers use it because makes the valve cluster quieter - and it's cheap!

I can't see a scenario where a valve alignment wouldn't improve a horn; if proper materials are used, it'll last for many years.

I say go for it!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
An anecdote about modifying a horn you already love:

When Rafael Mendez had his signature model made by Olds, he demanded a faithful reproduction of the faithful French Besson he had played throughout his career. The story goes that when he played the first prototypes, he really didn’t like them. When the techs (I wish I knew who, not just for the purpose of this infamous story) heard him play the Mendez model back-to-back with the Besson it was modeled after, they realized that the great maestro’s problem didn’t stem from an inaccurate measurement of leadpipe or Venturi or bore or bell…it all came down to the fact that these new instruments had (excellent) tolerances in the valves that the vintage warhorse he’d grown accustomed to couldn’t compete with. My understanding of the conclusion of this story is that Mednez was ultimately given a horn whose valves had been over-lapped and fit more loosely than Olds would have ever otherwise let leave the factory floor for sale. However, this new horn with his name on it now more closely resembled the blow and response qualities he had grown to love.

Happy practicing!
-DB


The problem with that story is the spin that gets put on it. You see, Mendez didn't just have one Besson, and he was not generally inclined to play on second-rate equipment. Also, while there are similarities in the tapers, the Mendez is in no way a Besson clone.

Playing the two side by side, Mendez expressed dis-satisfaction and indeed a tech quickly buffed down the valves - but it was not to give Mendez a poorly made horn with wonky intonation, it was because that was the quickest way to alter the resistance profile and gauge Mendez's reaction.

The Olds Mendez benefitted from 2/3 of a century of improvements in trumpet making. As such, it was more efficient than any Besson. This left Mendez without the resistance profile he was comfortable with. As he had the chops to handle the intonation roller-coaster of loose valves, they knew they could zero-in on what was actually needed. The final product, as can be observed playing one, indeed now has been tweaked to have greater resistance than most other similar period designs. And I have heard that they did loosen the valves a little to add even more for Mendez's personal horns - but I am sure not as drastically as that first experiment.

Ironically, the Olds Custom (the final form of which is essentially an improved Mendez) was built to play "more open", and Mendez discovered he liked that in the end. Olds was not too thrilled when he arranged an "accident" on tour so that they would have to let him finish it on a Custom.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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Bill Blackwell
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Joined: 28 Nov 2008
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Location: Southern CA

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Danbassin wrote:
An anecdote about modifying a horn you already love:

When Rafael Mendez had his signature model made by Olds, he demanded a faithful reproduction of the faithful French Besson he had played throughout his career. The story goes that when he played the first prototypes, he really didn’t like them. When the techs (I wish I knew who, not just for the purpose of this infamous story) heard him play the Mendez model back-to-back with the Besson it was modeled after, they realized that the great maestro’s problem didn’t stem from an inaccurate measurement of leadpipe or Venturi or bore or bell…it all came down to the fact that these new instruments had (excellent) tolerances in the valves that the vintage warhorse he’d grown accustomed to couldn’t compete with. My understanding of the conclusion of this story is that Mednez was ultimately given a horn whose valves had been over-lapped and fit more loosely than Olds would have ever otherwise let leave the factory floor for sale. However, this new horn with his name on it now more closely resembled the blow and response qualities he had grown to love.

Happy practicing!
-DB


The problem with that story is the spin that gets put on it. You see, Mendez didn't just have one Besson, and he was not generally inclined to play on second-rate equipment. Also, while there are similarities in the tapers, the Mendez is in no way a Besson clone.

Playing the two side by side, Mendez expressed dis-satisfaction and indeed a tech quickly buffed down the valves - but it was not to give Mendez a poorly made horn with wonky intonation, it was because that was the quickest way to alter the resistance profile and gauge Mendez's reaction.

The Olds Mendez benefitted from 2/3 of a century of improvements in trumpet making. As such, it was more efficient than any Besson. This left Mendez without the resistance profile he was comfortable with. As he had the chops to handle the intonation roller-coaster of loose valves, they knew they could zero-in on what was actually needed. The final product, as can be observed playing one, indeed now has been tweaked to have greater resistance than most other similar period designs. And I have heard that they did loosen the valves a little to add even more for Mendez's personal horns - but I am sure not as drastically as that first experiment.

Ironically, the Olds Custom (the final form of which is essentially an improved Mendez) was built to play "more open", and Mendez discovered he liked that in the end. Olds was not too thrilled when he arranged an "accident" on tour so that they would have to let him finish it on a Custom.

Two things to add as I've understood it:

1. Mendez actually liked the Olds Ambassador and F.E. Olds built him a horn with the same specs, but with different bracing and triggers on the 1st and 3rd valves.

2. It was the trigger mechanism in the 1st and 3rd valve crooks that made the Olds Mendez model play tighter.
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Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine

Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper

The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Blackwell wrote:
2. It was the trigger mechanism in the 1st and 3rd valve crooks that made the Olds Mendez model play tighter.


I had to think about that for a while because my first reaction was "wait, that's damping and downward frequency-shifting interference, wont that make the horn more efficient?" But I was failing to consider that the net effect of pennies on the pendulum is that some higher frequency noise in the tone is stripped away, and our hearing is high-biased. So our ears could sense a decrease in dynamic at the same input energy because of that frequency dependent perception - and thus feel a little more "resistance".

Very interesting point!
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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