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Which Flugelhorn for Jazz?


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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chose the sound you want then go shopping for the gear to get that sound. To my ears there are very specific differences that might be categorized as smoky, French horny, trombony. I gravitate to a smoky sound that I hear from Couesnon, Yamaha 631/731 and Kanstul. And while others sometimes sound great on them, I don't generally hear the sound I want on Bach/Conn/Courtois/Getzen/Schagerl. This is based both on horns I've tried and others that I've just heard.

And after you've scored the horn then you get to go mouthpiece shopping which is a whole other can of worms.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A used Kanstul 925 or 1025 would be excellent, and more in your price range probably than a 1525. The 1025 is very much in the Couesnon/F. Besson tradition with a .415 bore, 6" bell and bottom-sprung valves, which allow for the open wrap that, in my opinion, distinguishes that design. I agree with shofarguy in that a french taper leadpipe and mouthpiece make the 1025 a very "mellow" and smoky horn (the 925 came with a french taper leadpipe, but it has top-sprung valves like the 1525)

According to their website, Hornguys https://www.hornguys.com/collections/flugelhorns/products/stauffer-brass-flugelhorn-1 is still selling its "Stauffer" flugelhorn that was made by Kanstul and is very close to the 1025, at a very reasonable $1500 new. I don't know how you could go wrong with that, if it's still available.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
There is a little known choice from Flip Oakes. His Champion flugelhorn is very good for about your price.


Does Flip offer his Champ flugelhorn with a french taper leadpipe?

By the way, the link should be www.flipoakes.com
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberty Lips wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
There is a little known choice from Flip Oakes. His Champion flugelhorn is very good for about your price.


Does Flip offer his Champ flugelhorn with a french taper leadpipe?

By the way, the link should be www.flipoakes.com


No. I think it is Large Morse taper. But it has a great sound.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Liberty Lips wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
There is a little known choice from Flip Oakes. His Champion flugelhorn is very good for about your price.


Does Flip offer his Champ flugelhorn with a french taper leadpipe?

By the way, the link should be www.flipoakes.com


No. I think it is Large Morse taper. But it has a great sound.


Yo, Brian!

Do the Champ's have a copper bell?
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dkjcliff wrote:
I'll also put in a plug for Yamaha flugels. I recently unearthed my 635T that had been in storage for quite a while. After I cleaned it up, I was amazed at how well it played and sounded. Very mellow and rich, and great intonation throughout. I realized I never really appreciated this horn for how good it is, partially cause when I was playing it a lot back in high school and college I had a lot of embouchure problems, which I'm now correcting. The 635T wasn't in production all that long so it can be harder to find. But if you have a chance to try one, I'd highly recommend it.


Bobby Shew scolded me when I said that the 635 was modeled after the Quesnon. Chastened, I was informed that it was modeled after the French Besson. The Z flugel is indeed modeled after the Couesnon. Bobby was reputed to have a fairly large collection of Couesnon Flugels.

My former teacher, Leon Merian (RIP) Played a 635T and seemed quite happy with it. PM me with an email address and I'll send you a cut with him playing it.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@shofarguy: thanks for that piece of info on the leadpipe etc. for the 1525. I didn’t know that. Well, it’s probably a moot point at this stage anyway, but I’d probably spend less money on a horn that works right away, such as my current favorite FBX. I do like the color of the 1525, though
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Liberty Lips wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
There is a little known choice from Flip Oakes. His Champion flugelhorn is very good for about your price.


Does Flip offer his Champ flugelhorn with a french taper leadpipe?

By the way, the link should be www.flipoakes.com


No. I think it is Large Morse taper. But it has a great sound.


Yo, Brian!

Do the Champ's have a copper bell?


No. The champ is all yellow brass. I played it alongside my beloved Wild Thing flugelhorn. The intonation was good; a little different than Kanstul flugelhorn, but not what I would call worse. Just little nuances that are not the same nuances I'm used to. Anyway, it has a little more snap to its articulation and a little more defused sound. I think it's really nice.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Liberty Lips wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
There is a little known choice from Flip Oakes. His Champion flugelhorn is very good for about your price.


Does Flip offer his Champ flugelhorn with a french taper leadpipe?

By the way, the link should be www.flipoakes.com


No. I think it is Large Morse taper. But it has a great sound.


Yo, Brian!

Do the Champ's have a copper bell?


No. The champ is all yellow brass. I played it alongside my beloved Wild Thing flugelhorn. The intonation was good; a little different than Kanstul flugelhorn, but not what I would call worse. Just little nuances that are not the same nuances I'm used to. Anyway, it has a little more snap to its articulation and a little more defused sound. I think it's really nice.


Thanks, Brian
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Trptbenge
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject: Flugelhorn choice Reply with quote

Flips instruments are great! My question to you is how much are you really going to use it? In our big band we do not use them as much as we thought or hoped. That said, you can find a really nice flugelhorn for a good price - used is a great choice or one sold by George Rawlin. One thing not to ignore is the mouthpiece - it can have as much effect on the sound as the horn. There are a lot of good ones. I use a Patrick Mouthpiece by Steve Patrick. Just some food for thought.
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mark5009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn choice Reply with quote

Trptbenge wrote:
or one sold by George Rawlin. One thing not to ignore is the mouthpiece.


Funny you should mention both of these. I have one of George's Solista flugelhorns and it plays very well, but I don't have a lot to compare it with. I have been playing it with a Yamaha Bobby Shew mouthpiece, which is and it makes the horn quite bright with an amazing sound up top. The Curry 8.5FLD, which arrived yesterday, completely changes the horn into a dark and broody, almost tenor horn, tone.

If you don't want to spend a heap and want new, I suspect you could do worse
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoughts on the Conn Vintage One?
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the V1! I had one of the originals when they came out and I was an endorsing artist. Played it for 15+ years and loved it. A friend came over with a Yamaha 8315 and I really liked it so I bought one. Played them side-by-side for 3 months and decided the Yammie was better and sold the V1. One minute later, I regretted it and the Yamaha never played as well for me for the next two years. Then I found a new V1 at Park Ave. Music and they traded for the Yamaha + $500. So now I'm back with the V1 but miss my old one still.

Eb
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
@shofarguy: thanks for that piece of info on the leadpipe etc. for the 1525. I didn’t know that. Well, it’s probably a moot point at this stage anyway, but I’d probably spend less money on a horn that works right away, such as my current favorite FBX. I do like the color of the 1525, though

Before Kanstul dissolved, I bought two French taper (i.e., straight) leadpipes for my Kanstul 1525. Brian is correct, it does play better. I could tell by ear that the intonation was improved but also verified it on my strobe tuner. Charles Hargett was my salesperson, and I believe he is now with B.A.C. who also has parts from the Kanstul factory. Worth a try.
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Bryant Jordan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The BEST flugelhorn I’ve ever played for jazz period is the Cannonball 779. The tone is out of this world. I’d try and test one out if possible if you’re looking for a great jazz flugel. They’re not too terribly expensive either.
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jprosch
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with others, a vintage Yamaha YFH-631 flugelhorn would be my recommendation. Simply an amazing sounding horn.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, nobody else has said so I will. To answer your question directly, what you need is a JAZZ FLUGELHORN man!!!!


keith
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wilder
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buy a used Yamaha 631. Its got that smokey, velvety french horn kind of sound with very good intonation and good valves. Not expensive. jw
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having owned several Couesnons and Yamahas, and having played just about every flugelhorn available at NAMM and ITG, my go to flugelhorn is an Adams hands down. But even a used Adams, if you can find one, is going to be at your $2,000.00 limit if not over your limit.

At your price range, I would recommend a Couesnon or Yamaha. With the Couesnon, you should definitely play it first because they are really hit and miss as far as valves and intonation. I currently have a very old Couesnon (probably 1950's vintage) and after a Dr. Valve valve job is a truly terrific horn. But I still like the Adams better.

The best bang for your buck is a used Yamaha. The build quality is excellent and they are very consistent. I would not hesitate to buy one even if I was not able to play it first. My preference is the 631 in lacquer, but the 731 is just fine. I have never been a big fan of the Bobby Shew Model sound wise and of all the Yamahas, I like the 8315G the best for its sound. But a used 8315G, if you can find one, is going to be close to a used Adams and I much prefer the Adams.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scodwell. Great sound, excellent intonation.
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