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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:38 pm Post subject: Question for Those Who Can Play DHC |
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First, the disclaimers. I am not trying to brag or show off. What usually happens to me on a thread like this is someone does accuse me of bragging and says how a soft squeak DHC is no good. Then I explain how I can get it at 100+ db and post a video. Then someone says that is still no good and I should transcribe Clifford Brown. Then I take another year plus break from TH.......
I am not a high note freak. I spend maybe 10 minutes a day working on upper range during my chop routine. Most of my practice time is focused on improving my lead style and time, and developing enough improv skills to be a more harmonically competent lead player.
So can we PLEASE avoid all the insults and criticism and just consider my question?
I find that with my normal chop setting I can play up to Bb above High C. If I miss those notes it's because I didn't put enough air through the horn. I use the Wedge Breath that Jim Manley teaches and as many know that provides a lot of PSI when needed.
However, I cannot get above that Bb without adjusting my chop setting, no matter how much air pressure I use. I need to minutely adjust my chops by rolling out my lower lip slightly and pushing the lower lip a little more into and higher in the MP. When I do that I can get to Double Eb. I don't try to go above that because notes much above four ledger line G or A seem more like sound effects than useful lead notes, and it takes a lot of time to have proficiency up there and there are many other things I need to work on.
Now Pops talks about "High Gear/Low Gear" and that is what this seems to be. My question is if I were to just set for the higher notes would I have better endurance throughout my range? Has anyone chosen to do that and had good results? _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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soulfire Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 334 Location: NJ
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Honest question, so here is an honest answer-
When I was in high school, like many other people I became obsessed with MF and high notes. I found that if I unfurled my lower lip in the manner probably similar to what you describe, I was able to squeak my way up to a double C. As a lot of famous musicians say, "from squeaks, you eventually get notes" and that's what happened for me. As I grew out of my high note obsession phase, I began to feel that if I could not link the two setups together, the high stuff is useless. You can't reset your embouchure mid-run or mid improv solo and no professors really cared about me playing a double C (I should mention I don't really like playing lead, I'm a jazz guy. There's a difference between playing high and being a lead player. I'm not a lead player). So through a lot of work, I managed to link the two. It is now 15 years later and I no longer consider myself to have 2 chop sets. I think the main reason a lot of folks don't use a high gear for normal stuff is because quite simply, it doesn't sound good in that register and that's where we do 90% of our playing. Ideally, my advice would be to try and link them into one fluid chop set. If you can't do that, I know that folks like Nick Drozdoff have gained the ability through practice to play all over the horn on the high gear, while still maintaining their low gear for normal playing.
That's just my opinion, take it for what it is. _________________ Chris |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Question for Those Who Can Play DHC |
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INTJ wrote: | First, the disclaimers. I am not trying to brag or show off. What usually happens to me on a thread like this is someone does accuse me of bragging and says how a soft squeak DHC is no good. Then I explain how I can get it at 100+ db and post a video. Then someone says that is still no good and I should transcribe Clifford Brown. Then I take another year plus break from TH.......
I am not a high note freak. I spend maybe 10 minutes a day working on upper range during my chop routine. Most of my practice time is focused on improving my lead style and time, and developing enough improv skills to be a more harmonically competent lead player.
So can we PLEASE avoid all the insults and criticism and just consider my question?
I find that with my normal chop setting I can play up to Bb above High C. If I miss those notes it's because I didn't put enough air through the horn. I use the Wedge Breath that Jim Manley teaches and as many know that provides a lot of PSI when needed.
However, I cannot get above that Bb without adjusting my chop setting, no matter how much air pressure I use. I need to minutely adjust my chops by rolling out my lower lip slightly and pushing the lower lip a little more into and higher in the MP. When I do that I can get to Double Eb. I don't try to go above that because notes much above four ledger line G or A seem more like sound effects than useful lead notes, and it takes a lot of time to have proficiency up there and there are many other things I need to work on.
Now Pops talks about "High Gear/Low Gear" and that is what this seems to be. My question is if I were to just set for the higher notes would I have better endurance throughout my range? Has anyone chosen to do that and had good results? |
In a word, YES! I made my former “high-note placement” my permanent embouchure about 18 months ago. It did take awhile to get proficiency in the lower register, and I'm continuing to hone my skills there. My background is not Lead, but orchestral and some commercial over the past 25+ years playing local musical theatre (official spelling, according to drama people!). Most of the theatre work has been section and some 1st on classical shows. But I had a shift between two settings for years, or two chop settings with overlap.
I talked to a principal trombone player in a major US sym orch a few years ago about this, and he admitted that he had two distinct chop settings, one for high, one for low...but that they had enough overlap for him to make it all work. I don't think he's alone. My low setting was up to about an E above high C. By shifting I could easily get notes above DHC. Now I can play three-octave scales up to G above high C strongly and tongued or slurred, plus three-octave scales up to D above DHC...but not yet consistently...I guess it's consistent up to DHC.
If you have enough overlap, you may be wise to just continue with what you have. It’s only in those instances where the page requires you to go beyond your workability…then you might consider making a task out of all of this. IOW, if it’s a minor annoyance because some people seem to have more fluidity crossing your present “borders” that you’d like in your own playing, but not to where your playing scenarios really require a change, then you might consider working on something like this minimally, but continuing to maintain what you have without too much expectation for a major change to occur.
I'm continuing to work on it, but like you, my concern is spending time in the middle and low register up to high C, so I spend maybe ten minutes a day on the days I work up there, whereas most of the time, I am still working on the opening to Mahler 5!
I guess the main thing to remember in all of this is, as many have said..."You have the low register, the high register, and the CASH register!” |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I am going to have to play with this a little bit. With the high setting there is less effort for all the notes above High C but I don't have as much control. I have plenty of volume and I think the high setting is a more relaxed setting. I guess I can do my 10 minutes of range work with the high setting and see where that leads. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 751 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:55 am Post subject: |
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If you're interested in "high gear low gear" technique,check Walt Johnson's web site. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Question for Those Who Can Play DHC |
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INTJ wrote: | My question is if I were to just set for the higher notes would I have better endurance throughout my range? Has anyone chosen to do that and had good results? |
It sounds like you're a strong candidate to excel quickly at the Stevens System. What you've discovered is that by shifting to a more suitable and higher geared chop setting that the complete range of the instrument is available to you.
This is classic Stevens-Costello teaching. It being far easier to learn lower tones on a high note embouchure than to learn high notes on a low note embouchure. I highly recommend that you order tbe book from Colin Brass Publishing. I've bought two this year.
Seriously dude! You sound like a ready made customer. The Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique" will teach you all the principles of an unlimited embouchure. That and how to work that high note setting downwards all the way to Low F#. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2478 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:06 am Post subject: |
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When I got rid of 2 embouchure sets I started to make progress.
Everyone is different! I occasionally get the itch to figure out the WIG setup Steve Reid plays but I have adequate range for the work I do. Sound, time and intonation is much more important to me.
Good luck! _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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bach_again wrote: | When I got rid of 2 embouchure sets I started to make progress. | +1
I took a lesson from a prominent commercial player who used to do the same.
He showed me how to equalize the compression in the upper register so I no
longer needed to switch...game changer!! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yamahaguy wrote: |
I took a lesson from a prominent commercial player who used to do the same.
He showed me how to equalize the compression in the upper register so I no
longer needed to switch...game changer!! |
And exactly how did you do that, guy? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Yamahaguy wrote: |
I took a lesson from a prominent commercial player who used to do the same.
He showed me how to equalize the compression in the upper register so I no
longer needed to switch...game changer!! |
And exactly how did you do that, guy? | Easy...
1) Don't overblow
2) Relax the tension in the lips
3) Let the tongue arch assist you |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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