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Question for Those Who Can Play DHC



 
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:38 pm    Post subject: Question for Those Who Can Play DHC Reply with quote

First, the disclaimers. I am not trying to brag or show off. What usually happens to me on a thread like this is someone does accuse me of bragging and says how a soft squeak DHC is no good. Then I explain how I can get it at 100+ db and post a video. Then someone says that is still no good and I should transcribe Clifford Brown. Then I take another year plus break from TH.......

I am not a high note freak. I spend maybe 10 minutes a day working on upper range during my chop routine. Most of my practice time is focused on improving my lead style and time, and developing enough improv skills to be a more harmonically competent lead player.

So can we PLEASE avoid all the insults and criticism and just consider my question?

I find that with my normal chop setting I can play up to Bb above High C. If I miss those notes it's because I didn't put enough air through the horn. I use the Wedge Breath that Jim Manley teaches and as many know that provides a lot of PSI when needed.

However, I cannot get above that Bb without adjusting my chop setting, no matter how much air pressure I use. I need to minutely adjust my chops by rolling out my lower lip slightly and pushing the lower lip a little more into and higher in the MP. When I do that I can get to Double Eb. I don't try to go above that because notes much above four ledger line G or A seem more like sound effects than useful lead notes, and it takes a lot of time to have proficiency up there and there are many other things I need to work on.

Now Pops talks about "High Gear/Low Gear" and that is what this seems to be. My question is if I were to just set for the higher notes would I have better endurance throughout my range? Has anyone chosen to do that and had good results?
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soulfire
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honest question, so here is an honest answer-

When I was in high school, like many other people I became obsessed with MF and high notes. I found that if I unfurled my lower lip in the manner probably similar to what you describe, I was able to squeak my way up to a double C. As a lot of famous musicians say, "from squeaks, you eventually get notes" and that's what happened for me. As I grew out of my high note obsession phase, I began to feel that if I could not link the two setups together, the high stuff is useless. You can't reset your embouchure mid-run or mid improv solo and no professors really cared about me playing a double C (I should mention I don't really like playing lead, I'm a jazz guy. There's a difference between playing high and being a lead player. I'm not a lead player). So through a lot of work, I managed to link the two. It is now 15 years later and I no longer consider myself to have 2 chop sets. I think the main reason a lot of folks don't use a high gear for normal stuff is because quite simply, it doesn't sound good in that register and that's where we do 90% of our playing. Ideally, my advice would be to try and link them into one fluid chop set. If you can't do that, I know that folks like Nick Drozdoff have gained the ability through practice to play all over the horn on the high gear, while still maintaining their low gear for normal playing.

That's just my opinion, take it for what it is.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Question for Those Who Can Play DHC Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
First, the disclaimers. I am not trying to brag or show off. What usually happens to me on a thread like this is someone does accuse me of bragging and says how a soft squeak DHC is no good. Then I explain how I can get it at 100+ db and post a video. Then someone says that is still no good and I should transcribe Clifford Brown. Then I take another year plus break from TH.......

I am not a high note freak. I spend maybe 10 minutes a day working on upper range during my chop routine. Most of my practice time is focused on improving my lead style and time, and developing enough improv skills to be a more harmonically competent lead player.

So can we PLEASE avoid all the insults and criticism and just consider my question?

I find that with my normal chop setting I can play up to Bb above High C. If I miss those notes it's because I didn't put enough air through the horn. I use the Wedge Breath that Jim Manley teaches and as many know that provides a lot of PSI when needed.

However, I cannot get above that Bb without adjusting my chop setting, no matter how much air pressure I use. I need to minutely adjust my chops by rolling out my lower lip slightly and pushing the lower lip a little more into and higher in the MP. When I do that I can get to Double Eb. I don't try to go above that because notes much above four ledger line G or A seem more like sound effects than useful lead notes, and it takes a lot of time to have proficiency up there and there are many other things I need to work on.

Now Pops talks about "High Gear/Low Gear" and that is what this seems to be. My question is if I were to just set for the higher notes would I have better endurance throughout my range? Has anyone chosen to do that and had good results?

In a word, YES! I made my former “high-note placement” my permanent embouchure about 18 months ago. It did take awhile to get proficiency in the lower register, and I'm continuing to hone my skills there. My background is not Lead, but orchestral and some commercial over the past 25+ years playing local musical theatre (official spelling, according to drama people!). Most of the theatre work has been section and some 1st on classical shows. But I had a shift between two settings for years, or two chop settings with overlap.

I talked to a principal trombone player in a major US sym orch a few years ago about this, and he admitted that he had two distinct chop settings, one for high, one for low...but that they had enough overlap for him to make it all work. I don't think he's alone. My low setting was up to about an E above high C. By shifting I could easily get notes above DHC. Now I can play three-octave scales up to G above high C strongly and tongued or slurred, plus three-octave scales up to D above DHC...but not yet consistently...I guess it's consistent up to DHC.

If you have enough overlap, you may be wise to just continue with what you have. It’s only in those instances where the page requires you to go beyond your workability…then you might consider making a task out of all of this. IOW, if it’s a minor annoyance because some people seem to have more fluidity crossing your present “borders” that you’d like in your own playing, but not to where your playing scenarios really require a change, then you might consider working on something like this minimally, but continuing to maintain what you have without too much expectation for a major change to occur.

I'm continuing to work on it, but like you, my concern is spending time in the middle and low register up to high C, so I spend maybe ten minutes a day on the days I work up there, whereas most of the time, I am still working on the opening to Mahler 5!

I guess the main thing to remember in all of this is, as many have said..."You have the low register, the high register, and the CASH register!”
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. I am going to have to play with this a little bit. With the high setting there is less effort for all the notes above High C but I don't have as much control. I have plenty of volume and I think the high setting is a more relaxed setting. I guess I can do my 10 minutes of range work with the high setting and see where that leads.
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're interested in "high gear low gear" technique,check Walt Johnson's web site.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Question for Those Who Can Play DHC Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
My question is if I were to just set for the higher notes would I have better endurance throughout my range? Has anyone chosen to do that and had good results?


It sounds like you're a strong candidate to excel quickly at the Stevens System. What you've discovered is that by shifting to a more suitable and higher geared chop setting that the complete range of the instrument is available to you.

This is classic Stevens-Costello teaching. It being far easier to learn lower tones on a high note embouchure than to learn high notes on a low note embouchure. I highly recommend that you order tbe book from Colin Brass Publishing. I've bought two this year.

Seriously dude! You sound like a ready made customer. The Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique" will teach you all the principles of an unlimited embouchure. That and how to work that high note setting downwards all the way to Low F#.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I got rid of 2 embouchure sets I started to make progress.

Everyone is different! I occasionally get the itch to figure out the WIG setup Steve Reid plays but I have adequate range for the work I do. Sound, time and intonation is much more important to me.

Good luck!
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
When I got rid of 2 embouchure sets I started to make progress.
+1
I took a lesson from a prominent commercial player who used to do the same.
He showed me how to equalize the compression in the upper register so I no
longer needed to switch...game changer!!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:

I took a lesson from a prominent commercial player who used to do the same.
He showed me how to equalize the compression in the upper register so I no
longer needed to switch...game changer!!


And exactly how did you do that, guy?
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Yamahaguy wrote:

I took a lesson from a prominent commercial player who used to do the same.
He showed me how to equalize the compression in the upper register so I no
longer needed to switch...game changer!!


And exactly how did you do that, guy?
Easy...
1) Don't overblow
2) Relax the tension in the lips
3) Let the tongue arch assist you
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.
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