clear sound vs dirty sould

[trumpetgreece]

Hello

I have noticed that most times when I play the trumpet I can produce
a good sound, but many times a dirty sound comes out of the horn.
The ideal is a clear sound, then is a good sound and last is a dirty sound.

I suspect that the dirty sound comes out when I have played a lot and I am fatigued, have you ever noticed anything similar?

I believe the quality of the sound depends on the vibration of the lips.
Good vibration=clear sound, Distorted vibration=dirty sound.

What does your experience tell you about all these?
Is there any exercise to improve the quality of the vibration of the lips?

[darksmoke]

Aside from tonal alterations and changes in timbre, I have found a truly bad, dirty, and 'muddy' sound to usually be caused by incorrect embouchure and air use. So it would make sense that it would increasingly occur when one is fatigued and the lips are tired.
Sometimes a small part on the edge of your top lip may be in the way of the air stream in your embouchure and causing interception, but in your case it's more likely that you're applying a bit too much pressure on your face with the mouthpiece since you say if occurs after you play a lot.
Try taking a break every time you feel fatigue start to set in and come back to playing after- it should feel a lot better. Everyone builds endurance naturally, just keep on playing and be as efficient as possible. It just takes time, we're only human.
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[kalijah]

[kehaulani]

[trumpetgreece]

And the thing is, this dirty/distorted sound appears specifically in higher notes, and to a lesser degree in middle notes.

It feels like the lips can't vibrate normally. They vibrate in a distorted fashion.

And the sound produced sounds like the lips are rubbing against each other, or like the trumpet is clogged.

[JayKosta]

What you've described seems to be normal muscle fatigue. When you notice it beginning, ease off a bit - play long tones for the notes that do sound good as a way of resting. That might be enough rest to allow a brief additional period of more intense playing. But for most people, once those muscles are fatigued, several hours (maybe next day) rest is needed.

Jay
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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[Beyond16]

I think some here forget what true beginnerdom is like. My opinion may not be in sync with others. To me, playing a brass instrument is quite unnatural. Mammal lips evolved for eating and drinking, not for playing a trumpet. For that reason, it takes an unusual amount of "practice". I put practice in quotes because I see the early months of learning trumpet more like trying to add 50lbs to your bench press max than learning to play a musical instrument. The kind of tone problems I notice as a beginner are:
While warming up:
1) Lips too far apart or too close together.
2) Lips too wet or too dry.
After warmed up:
1) Lips so tired the air occasionally moves through as bubbles rather than a continuous stream.
2) Lips dry out, causing an airy sound.
3) The dreaded double buzz/split lip.

Then on top of that, the lip strength cycle where you feel like superman for a day or two, then like chop beef for a few days after that.

[kalijah]

Beyond 16, You are not alone in your opinion. I have attempted to make some of the points that you have made.

Its not just the lips but the mouth, tongue, jaw and teeth that are the "eating" system. We have conscripted these to endeavor to play a brass instrument. Fortunately, the lip anatomy with it's delicate system of muscles and nerves, allows fine control of the vibration "folds". To control the pitch played. Yet there are approaches and PREVAILING MYTHS that dismiss this fact completely.

As for your weight room analogy, the way beginners are usually taught is like taking a person who has never lifted weights to a gym and loading the apparatus with far more than they have not only strength, but the coordination, to handle.

This TRAINS and reinforces a mindset of stress and exhaustion. Habits are formed that are difficult or impossible to un-learn. Especially since the advice and PREVAILING MYTHS on how to progress is just more of the same.

[Bflatman]

I take a different line.

Tones are the root note and the harmonics are additional pure notes. No distortion is present in pure root and harmonic notes

To create the root note the lips must vibrate but novices have untrained lips and untrained lips vibrate inconsistently.

Inconsistently vibrating lips are prone to complex vibrations with uncentered tone production and variations in vibrations present. This is the source of distorted tones.

As we train the vibrations become more consistent and the lips leaner and fitter for the task. Split notes and random tonal issues become less apparent as the lips become more supple and range then increases.

As we progress tones become purer and clearer and audiences find the player to be enjoyable to listen to.

As muscles are worked they accumulate lactic acid and lactic acidosis can strike this leads to stiffening of the tissues and this makes the production of pure notes more difficult.

This then is the condition that leads to distorted and ragged playing when lips are tired after a long playing session.

A break allows the accumulated lactic acid to be swept away by the blood supply to the lips and lactic acidosis then recedes and pure tones are again achievable.

Some early symptoms of lactic acidosis are stomach discomfort, fast shallow breathing, general discomfort, muscle pain or cramping, tiredness and sleepiness, and weakness, I am sure many trumpet players have experienced this condition after a long session.

Lactic acidosis is serious but early onset of it is not serious when it is a temporary condition due to prolonged and extended muscular activity.

I suspect many trumpet players suffer it without realising it due to our unusual and prolonged activity. It comes with the territory.

[scottfsmith]

For me when this happens it is nearly always that my lips have gotten too close together, I am not using enough muscle and they are collapsing in. It can help to place the mouthpiece with the lips a touch further apart when that happens. I also sometimes get this in the morning when my lips are more swelled.. again setting up embouchure with lips a bit further apart solves the problem.
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[Gawis]

I too experience this dirty sound for example after I play trumpet right after I played trombone. Usually I believe it’s fatigue. However strangely enough I haven’t played both for 2 days and played trombone softly to avoid making noise, but the sound was dirty so I had to make an effort to focus my lips (making it rounder). I suspected lips were probably in way of airstream as I don’t have endurance/high range issues on trombone.