Petroleum-based vs. silicone-based valve oils

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

Petroleum-based vs. silicone-based valve oils. Hmm, guess what, y'all: They don't mix! Ever made that mistake?! I'd like to start a LIST of the trumpet valve oils on the market and which is which. Please contribute to this thread with the following info based on your own stash, experience, and/or infinite knowledge:

1. List name of valve oil (and please be specific: T1, T2, Monster Oil Doc...).
2. Confirm whether it is petroleum- or silicone-based.
3. In your experience, does it work better on loose or tight valves?
4. In your experience, has it been okay to mix particular makes, or do you know of specific ones that do not mix well, other than the known fact that petroleum and silicone (synthetic) valve oils do not mix?

Maybe "petroleum-based" and "silicone-base" is not the best wording, so those who know, please gently correct/advise/enlighten. IOW, maybe it is not correct to refer to one of these as "based" - I dunno. More exact wording?

Note: I discovered that La Tromba T1 has silicone, but T2 and T3 do not list silicone as an ingredient, which leads me to believe that only T1 has silicone, correct? (I did not mix these; just curious. My mistake was with others I had lying around one time, and I can't recall what...just grabbed a bottle and soon noticed very sticky valves! and later realized this distinction.)

Also, I am aware of the info on these websites:

https://www.nemc.com/resources/articles/valve-oil-the-more-you-kno_54

https://www.livescience.com/37598-silicon-or-silicone-chips-implants.html

...but not all makers are clear about even basic contents.

I will periodically compile/collate and update the list in alphabetical order over the next however long and repost to this thread.

Riojazz · Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 5:49 pm Post subject:

I think this could be a useful endeavor but I fear the contents are proprietary and getting the info you need will be difficult.
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dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

jondrowjf@gmail.com · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 663

Yes I made the mistake of mixing petroleum based and synthetic valve oils.

Presently I use La tromba #1 synthetic valve oil, like the size of the container. Also like monster #1 oil and hetmann oil. There in silicon in both La tromba #1 and monster oil. All the synthetic valve oils mix well together

It took me a few months, to realize that I did not like petroleum based valve oils. Didn't feel the coverage was good or last long. The smell of the petroleum valve oils put me off. Found out many of the petroleum-based valve oils didn't mix well.

Have owed many student cornets and trumpets and used synthetic oils on them. Even when the lacquer was shot, valves were in great shape. With only one or two exceptions, due to an apparent DIY repair by some idiot.

The valves are excellent on both my Getzen 800 Eterna cornet and Getzen Renaissance trumpet.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 8:05 pm Post subject:

I recently posted this in another thread. On the ultra pure website they discuss what they think is the issue with changing oils.

What is synthetic oil?

JayKosta · Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 5:17 am Post subject:

There's a difference between oils that are:
1) petroleum distillates - hydrocarbons / olefin / alkene
2) synthetic 'mineral oil' - hydrocarbons / olefin / alkene
3) silicon or other non-hydrocarbon oil

The bottle or package should contain some info about the type of oil. Or there is likely to be an online MSDS or SDS for the product.

Jay
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dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

Thanks for your comments, friends. Very helpful. The Ultra-Pure website has additional beneficial info:

https://www.ultrapureoils.com/post/if-you-like-hetman-oils-you-will-love-ultra-pure-oils

https://www.schoolmusiconline.com/central-music-highlights/2018/4/10/valve-oil-petroleum-vs-synthetic

The above website dated April 17, 2018, states that these are synthetic:
Alisyn, Hetman, Ultra-Pure, Yamaha
…and that these are petroleum oils:
Al Cass Fast, Blue Juice

For those interested, the Wikipedia article on Al Cass gives some interesting insight into his mouthpiece and valve oil developments, and particularly the R&D and final approval of the valve oil via Dizzy Gillespie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Cass

I used Al Cass Fast valve oil for years and liked the fact that it was odorless, which is surprising in some ways, since it is petroleum-based and most all of those have an odor. Blue Juice is also petroleum based, but I am not sure if they make an odorless product. All of the Ultra-Pure oils are odorless, but they are synthetic (silicone based). The above site also shows an array of products they offer in comparison to the many that are made by Hetman. Monster Oil makes synthetic products, but I do not know if they make an oil that is odorless. All four of these companies are based in the U.S., I understand.

Some players put some valve oil down the leadpipe before playing, or at the end of the day, to coat it to protect against red rot. I started doing that some awhile back, and unfortunately used a heavy-smelling oil just prior to a church gig in February. It about knocked the guy next to me out of his chair! An entire plume of “exhaust” deployed from my bell, and he got the brunt of it!

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it might be that Ultra-Pure may have the only synthetic on the market that does not have an odor nor discoloration if it leaks. It is also good to know from the site above that Ultra-Pure has an array of products, including various viscosities of valve and slide oils. I have used Ultra-Pure before, but over the past few years, I have experimented with many brands on different horns. I do know that some have only a very light odor. Reportedly, synthetics are comprised of smaller molecules and tend to be longer-lasting than petroleum products. Speed and longevity seem to be the main concerns for most players, but some people feel an allegiance to certain brands.

A couple of takeaways so far: always thoroughly clean the instrument when switching between petroleum and synthetic oils. Mixing different synthetic oils seem to be okay, but never mix petroleum and synthetic oils. Additionally, mixing certain petroleum brands with others do not always fare well.

Last thought: a local brass repair tech has told me about parents using cooking oil as a substitute when their child has run out of valve oil. He said that it is the worst possible thing you could put on brass valves…gets totally gunked up and cannot even salvage the horn. He has had to totally trash instruments due to how bad that stuff is. What gets me is how someone could ever think that that would be okay to use on a musical instrument. We have already been warned in another TH thread recently not to use WD-40, too. Just FYI.

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 2:34 pm Post subject:

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 3:41 pm Post subject:

I seem to remember some "synthetic" oils in years past that included silicone and teflon. I personally never used them and thus cannot comment on them nor their packaging's ingredient claims.

But I must say I don't remember seeing any discussion of this lately.

From what I have determined since reading Jay's comment about petroleum based oils and starting my research, in my layman's terms, I think that synthetic oil is oil that has been manipulated to isolate the more beneficial components of non-synthetic oils. There may or may not be other additives in said oil, such as silicone or teflon.

To be truthful, I am still not sure what makes an oil synthetic, and unless I go back to school and get a graduate degree probably never will.

Now to add a little more confusion, in the past here on TH there has been mentioned DIY valve oil using Ultra-Pure lamp oil. The lamp oil is pure paraffin based oil.

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:57 pm Post subject:

Ronnman · Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject:

Please see link below for a little help to understand the difference between mineral and synthetic oil.

I can somewhat understand why mineral (petroleum) based oils may work well in some valves and not in others. If the valve/casing has various sized micro scratches, the different sized molecules would tend to lodge (fit) in the closest match. Large molecules in large micro scratches and small in small scratches. Polishing/lapping the valve/casing may even the depth of the micro-scratches and then work better with one of the synthetic oils.
Ron

https://hub.yamaha.com/why-use-synthetic-valve-oil-on-your-brass-instruments/
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Monster Oil · Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:01 pm Post subject:

Synthetic - yeah, that's a loaded word. For some reason we've grouped oils into two groups - petroleum and synthetic. Even though the different synthetics are completely different from each other, and all the synthetics do have petroleum in them - even oils labelled 'bio'!

Our base oil is a PAO - which is as clean as it gets - as it's synthesized from natural gas.

We have combined our oil with every oil on the market, and nothing ever seized up. However, and there has been much written about this - the reaction likely occurs from an individual's ph. Or, as posted earlier, it could also be from loosening deposits.

jondrowjf - not sure what you mean by 'monster #1 oil', but if you mean our 'Faster' oil, it has no silicone in it.

We've done extensive testing on pretty much every oil on earth, and there are several in this thread we are huge fans of. Technology is an amazing thing, and oils have come a loooooooong way from what we were using 20 years ago.

And they're soooooo cheap too! I probably go through one of our bottles ($7.95) in about 9 months. That's with playing every day on about 7 different horns. Shoot, for $50 you can try all the well regarded brands and pick your favorite for life.

One more thing to keep in mind - different horns absolutely need different viscosities, and sometimes even different brands of oil altogether. So don't throw away a bottle just because it doesn't work on your cornet. You may have another horn it works perfectly on.

Best,

Tom
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scottfsmith · Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:46 pm Post subject:

Here is a stab at a list of possible ingredients which could be used to classify the type of valve oil.

If you had a yes/no on each of these you would have a start at a classification.. while these are broad categories it would help tell some oils apart.

Another dimension is the purpose of the chemical: most of the ingredients are lubricants to keep surfaces from touching and moving smoothly, but some valve oils also contain solvents to help keep things clean, and clearly you want to seal the valve from leaking so sealant properties is another dimension, as well as anti-wear protection. Thicker oils have better sealant properties for example. I don't know if any explicit extra anti-wear ingredients are added to any valve oils today.
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dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

All I can say is we got some smart people in this group. They certainly didn't teach me any of this in music school!

Ronnman · Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:17 am Post subject:

Monster Oil - Tom, thanks for sharing those details on your oils.
Question, does any of the “Monster Oil” valve oils, contain silicone or teflon?
Thanks,
Ron
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Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

JayKosta · Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:52 am Post subject:

JWG · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 257

For those who get confused on Synthetic oils vs. Non-Synthetic mineral oils: The difference arises from Chemically Altered vs. Distilled = Chemical processing vs. Physical processing.

The physical process of distilling creates mineral oils by physically separating substances into their constituent components by weight. Distillation works great to make us our favorite alcoholic drinks but leaves a lot impurities in oil as distillation basically separates components by using gravity to separate by weight. Thus, different components will remain together after distillation if they have the same or similar molecular weights.

Most synthetic oil manufacturers start with distilled mineral oils then apply a chemical process to further refine the oil by chemically manipulating the molecular structure of the oils using various chemical processes but usually chemically adding synthetic esters or olefins to the molecular structure.

The three basic types of synthetic oils are: Poly-alpha-olefin (PAO) Synthetic Oil, Polyalkylene Glycol (PAG) Synthetic Oil, and Group V (other non-mineral oil) synthetic oils.

So, synthetic oil is basically a distilled mineral oil that has undergone some type of chemical process that changed the molecular structure of that mineral oil by binding a synthetic molecule to it.

The label "synthetic valve oil" means that the oil manufacturer as done some type of additional chemical processing beyond the physical processing of distillation.
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Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992