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Playing trumpet hurts the lips! Please help!


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ProgramCrazy
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 1:10 pm    Post subject: Playing trumpet hurts the lips! Please help! Reply with quote

Hi! I'll try to keep this short and simple. For the past few months or so, it's been hurting my lips a lot to play the trumpet. I'll start to get deep red marks and lines within what seems like a minute of playing. I try to use very little pressure, but it doesn't seem to help.

I now have a white circle on my lips now, and I haven't played for a while but It's still there. I really really want to continue to play trumpet as I am going to college next year and I want to audition for marching band, but it just hurts so much to play!

I'll leave pictures below in a google drive folder.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CeGx40CkL9MjPbBQ_JUF2bhmL03DmE9f?usp=sharing

Thanks!
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're not using excess pressure - which is what it sounds like it would be from what you're describing. Maybe your mouthpiece is causing irritation? What kind is it? Is it clean? Is it new?
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ProgramCrazy
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
If you're not using excess pressure - which is what it sounds like it would be from what you're describing. Maybe your mouthpiece is causing irritation? What kind is it? Is it clean? Is it new?


A bach 3c. It's clean. But I also have been using different mouthpieces in the past, namely a bach 10.5 CW and a Yamaha 14a4a and still get the same result.

I'm thinking it's pressure, but I still get the ring when I really focus not jamming the horn into my face.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Playing trumpet hurts the lips! Please help! Reply with quote

ProgramCrazy wrote:
... I really really want to continue to play trumpet as I am going to college next year and I want to audition for marching band, ...

----------------------
I assume you are not a 'new player', so what is different about what you are doing NOW, compared to earlier - when there wasn't this problem?

Are you trying to increase you upper range, or loudness?
Have you been practicing for longer duration?

Jay
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a metal allergy.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Lips hurt Reply with quote

Hello all.
After playing my Symphony M3C for a while, my lips started to fatigue also. I switched to Schilke 14, with a softer rim and have not had the same hurt feeling since. 14 is a little wider and will be trying a 13 here in a short time.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed this looks like metal allergy. Try a plastic or stainless steel mouthpiece, for example:
1) Kelly (one-piece plastic),
2) Faxx (one-piece plastic),
3) Trent Austin (Acrylic top + regular backbore),
4) GR (with a custom option of a Delrin rim), or
5) Wedge (one-piece plastic, or one-piece stainless steel, or Delrin top + stainless backbore). The rim of a Wedge mouthpiece has a different rotational symmetry compared to all the other mouthpieces mentioned above.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:21 am    Post subject: lips hurt Reply with quote

Hello all,
By the looks of the pictures, looks like overuse. The third picture looks a little like an allergy, but could have been taken after a rest. Are your front teeth feeling like they are being pushed in? Do your eye teeth feel crowded? Going from two shallow mouthpieces to a 3C may be causing you to use more pressure to get the same range and endurance. Take a day off, and come back with an easy, soft warmup before you get back to your routine. do some pedals at the end of the session. Go easy with some rest. You might try recording yourself with your phone, then resting as you self-critique. That has worked for me lately as I am working through one-Charlier-a-week. By routine, I mean starting with breathing and slow long tones to get the face awake. Soft finger stuff, scales or Clarke. Flexibility with some slurs over .75 of your range- using air speed to do the work. And then working on some music. These are the slements of what you would find from a college trumpet studio/private teacher. Split you practice time into two parts a day...might take a little more time with the warmup/warmdown idea.
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Ronnman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgramCrazy - how long have you played trumpet? Have you changed the placement of the mouthpiece on your lips lately? Appears that 85% to 90% of the mouthpiece is placed on your upper lip. Some players may be able to play like this, but this seems unusual to me. I would guess this is placing extreme pressure on the upper lip resulting in pain. Some vertical offset up or down, and side to side is normally workable, your placement seems extreme.
Ron
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Lips hurt Reply with quote

Hello all,
Ronnman, his lips look just like mine. My tone and facility is best with more upper lip than lower. There are varying degrees of thought about percentage of upper and lower lip. If you are suggesting an experimentation, well then yes...if he has a private teacher. I am assuming by the posts, the OP is not, and is playing by natural talent and I itial instruction. Also by being still in school he may not know of the types and approaches of playing. Unusual for some, but definitely not uncommon.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks just like my lips did when I was a 5th grader playing with a Conn 4 mouthpiece.

It seems that you play 2/3 top 1/3 bottom like a french horn player. It also looks as though you play with an overbite - there is no mouthpiece imprint at the top of your lips - only the sides.

Options:
1. Learn to jut out your lower jaw when you play - kind of disruptive at first but it can be done.
2. Use a mouthpiece with a some what sharp OUTER edge of the rim. Wick cornet mouthpieces are like that - perhaps the trumpet mouthpieces are too. This makes the rotation of the mouthpiece downward uncomfortable which is what you are doing.
3. A Wedge might work. It transfers pressure to the top and bottom of the lip. The plastic ones are affordable for a high school student and can be returned.
4. Mouthpieces with the high point of the rim towards the outside of the rim. Specifically a Neill Sanders - you would need to have a custom made mouthpiece. I've found that to be a pretty good solution. It also transfers the pressure away from the bite of the rim. The Sanders rim also has a sharp outer edge to prevent downward rotation.

Finally:

Since your goal is not to become an orchestral trumpet player, but rather to play in a college marching band, let me make a suggestion that can save you from wasting a bunch of money on custom mouthpieces and painful hours in remedial practice.

Switch to treble clef baritone (or euphonium and play treble clef music). All of the problems you are having will go away and you can concentrate on technique and a good sound while making music. Your musical life in years to come will be much simpler. You will own one horn and two mouthpieces - the mouthpiece that came with the horn and the mouthpiece your teacher suggested. (Of course you can probably borrow a baritone at your high school and at college.)Clarinet players will like you. You will sleep better the night before community band concerts. A bunch of other stuff too. (I've never heard of a second chair baritone player holding a lighter under the mouthpiece of the first chair player before an entrance. DePauw trumpet players were a tough crowd.)
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Playing trumpet hurts the lips! Please help! Reply with quote

ProgramCrazy wrote:
Hi! I'll try to keep this short and simple. For the past few months or so, it's been hurting my lips a lot to play the trumpet. I'll start to get deep red marks and lines within what seems like a minute of playing. I try to use very little pressure, but it doesn't seem to help.

I now have a white circle on my lips now, and I haven't played for a while but It's still there. I really really want to continue to play trumpet as I am going to college next year and I want to audition for marching band, but it just hurts so much to play!

I'll leave pictures below in a google drive folder.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CeGx40CkL9MjPbBQ_JUF2bhmL03DmE9f?usp=sharing

Thanks!


Though it's not possible to be 100% correct in my prediction? This is almost certainly a result of two factors,

A. Mouthpiece.
B. Receded jaw embouchure.

The mouthpiece is usually easier to adjust than the embouchure. I mean shucks it would be great if he, like others could take a couple years off and switch over to the fantastic Stevens system. Where most the cats blow high G's and double C's without arm pressure at all and at a volume big as a house. I mean that would be great wouldn't it? However what's the likelihood of that actually happening? Don't get me wrong my friend, by all means study the "Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Trouble & Self Analysis" 2nd edition. Avail at Charles Colin publishing and Amazon I think.

But in the meantime I would address the mouthpiece issue. I speculate you're using the very sharp edged Bach 7C. I also consider this overly sharp edged piece to be waay too deep for most conventional trumpet players too.

Instead you should do as Herb Alpert did when he started to lose his chops. This due to the grind of near constant performing and a really sharp mouthpiece. Alpert switched to Marcinkiwicz. It saved his whole career! The Marcinkiewicz pieces run much less sharp on the inner rim edge..

Also my new good friend, keep in mind that going a hair shallower in mouthpiece dimension will not harm your tone even in the slightest. As even the shallowest pieces can have their throat and back-bore opened up. This will prevent the tone from changing.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Steven' System. Groan. How many successful players don't use the Steven's system? Additionally, what percent of high-note register playing is the real "money maker" for the majority of players? How does the Stevens System address these other techniques?

I'm not saying that either playing in the stratosphere or using the Stevens' System is not beneficial for some players. What I am saying is that the Stevens System is not the cat's meow.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProgramCrazy wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
If you're not using excess pressure - which is what it sounds like it would be from what you're describing. Maybe your mouthpiece is causing irritation? What kind is it? Is it clean? Is it new?


A bach 3c. It's clean. But I also have been using different mouthpieces in the past, namely a bach 10.5 CW and a Yamaha 14a4a and still get the same result.

I'm thinking it's pressure, but I still get the ring when I really focus not jamming the horn into my face.

If I understand correctly you believe that it's a problem with pressure. Your statement about focusing on not jamming sounds like you expect the problem to be gone right then. What this discounts is that chronic chop abuse when it's severe enough can be re-aggravated even with the lightest playing. It can sometimes take a long time for the chops to truly heal. There have been threads on that exact topic here so it's worth doing some searching.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not necessarily the same but here's another long thread on recovering from chop abuse.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150070&highlight=overuse
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ProgramCrazy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try to answer everyone to the best of my ability. I want to thank you and I appreciate everyone that has responded to this!

Quote:
Sounds like a metal allergy.

Quote:
Indeed this looks like metal allergy. Try a plastic or stainless steel mouthpiece, for example:


I thought that It might be an allergy, but I don't think it is an allergy as I have rested different mouthpieces onto my lips for 10-15 minutes and not having any pain. The pain comes when playing and buzzing into my mouthpiece.

I believe that the 3rd picture is some sort of scarring on my lips from having so much damage every day from playing for years and years. During my last 4 years of high school alone, I'd be up at 6:45 at the school playing 1st part jazz band for an hour. Then go to 3rd period for band for an hour playing. Monday's from 7-10 pm are Show band practices, I play first part so that's a lot of playing. Then you add all the times I'm practicing at home for other events like solos and whatnot.


Quote:
I assume you are not a 'new player', so what is different about what you are doing NOW, compared to earlier - when there wasn't this problem?

Are you trying to increase you upper range, or loudness?
Have you been practicing for longer duration?

Jay


If I had to put a finger on it, it would probably be the years and years of having bad habits and probably using too much pressure.

My importance in Trumpet went up in 7th grade as I was playing 1st part with the big boy 8th graders. For background information, I went to an elementary school that only went up to 6th grade, then I went to the local middle school. In 7th and 8th grade, I was exposed to a lot more musical opportunities, such as Back up band and Jazz band. Being one of the more excelled students in the band program, I was playing more difficult solos and playing a lot of higher notes and the time, such as G's and A's. Looking back, I went into this without a proper developed embouchure, and using the trumpet pinky ring to play higher notes.

High school then came along, and as a Freshman, I managed to snag 2nd chair out of 9 trumpets. I was only behind a senior who was really really good, but then again, I was also ahead of really other good trumpet players too. I played first part in almost everything except for jazz band that year.

Sophomore through Senior year, I continued to play first part on everything the band director handed me. I continued to play what probably is the wrong way to play high for the rest of my days until I graduated.

It's starting to get late, and I want to reply to the other posts, if you want any further details please ask, I'm looking for all the help I can get. Thank you so much!

Quote:
Hello all,
By the looks of the pictures, looks like overuse. The third picture looks a little like an allergy, but could have been taken after a rest. Are your front teeth feeling like they are being pushed in? Do your eye teeth feel crowded? Going from two shallow mouthpieces to a 3C may be causing you to use more pressure to get the same range and endurance. Take a day off, and come back with an easy, soft warmup before you get back to your routine. do some pedals at the end of the session. Go easy with some rest. You might try recording yourself with your phone, then resting as you self-critique. That has worked for me lately as I am working through one-Charlier-a-week. By routine, I mean starting with breathing and slow long tones to get the face awake. Soft finger stuff, scales or Clarke. Flexibility with some slurs over .75 of your range- using air speed to do the work. And then working on some music. These are the slements of what you would find from a college trumpet studio/private teacher. Split you practice time into two parts a day...might take a little more time with the warmup/warmdown idea.


Further up my post is my take on the 3rd picture and my thoughts on the probability of it being an allergy.

As for all the different teeth questions, I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability. I haven't been doing a lot of playing since school has been canceled in March.

I don't ever remember my front teeth ever being feeling like being pushed in when I play. A more accurate description that I would say is like "my lips are being mashed."

My mouth piece track went something like this.
7c - 5th grade through 9th grade
5c - 9th grade through 10th grade
3c - 11th grade
Yamaha 14a4a - Got in December of 11th grade, used it during Jazz band performances and used the 3c for Concert stuff. Toward the end of the year, I was using the 14a4a for everything.
10.5c - 12th grade up until January of this year
3c - January of 2020 to today.

Right now I am at the "Take a day off, and come back..." part in your post

When Quarantine started I remember taking a day or two off both as a physical and mental break. I then proceeded to do the "Total Range" book for 3 weeks around. The first week was great and I started to notice that it hurt less, I still got the marks and rings though. As Time continued, it got worse and worse to the point where I had to stop playing for a while.

I went on and off Trumpet during the end of April and May. Whenever I do play, I work on the low stuff and do scales.

Quote:
ProgramCrazy - how long have you played trumpet? Have you changed the placement of the mouthpiece on your lips lately? Appears that 85% to 90% of the mouthpiece is placed on your upper lip. Some players may be able to play like this, but this seems unusual to me. I would guess this is placing extreme pressure on the upper lip resulting in pain. Some vertical offset up or down, and side to side is normally workable, your placement seems extreme.
Ron


I've been playing trumpet since 5th grade, so 7 years. I haven't changed anything about my mouthpiece placement. Here's a picture of my embouchure. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YaeZQ4wkM7fY49jCJaTnSnlwLZcRkEzS?usp=sharing

I do believe that it is a is about 55% on the top and 45% on the bottom give or take, but I really feel it on the top lip, hence why the markings are on the top lip.

This was all that I could get to for tonight. I try to respond to other people sometime tomorrow.

Another problem that might in conjunction with the problem is neck tension. I've noticed that my neck puffs out when going higher, and my throat starts to squeeze up and tense and whatnot.

Thanks everybody for the replies![/quote]
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Program,
Back in the day when I used to see various New England area amateurs and pros take to the ancient and long since defunct Al Cass mouthpiece line I never once saw that well defined mouthpiece "ring around the upper lip". It only happened on conventional pieces and esp on Vincent Bach.

After reading your history of mouthpiece choices I almost wanted to scream. As it's a condition that I'm too familiar with and just about breaks my heart. Again!

The teacher starts a kid on the deep, sharp edged Bach 7C. A few years later and well before he's even developed a mere High C? The teacher advises a change to Bach 3C. Later the 1C or 1&1/2C. Not a lot of difference.

It isn't just the sharp rim either but t flatness of the rim contour. The flat area is like a flat plane or a flat road surface. Lips may bend some but they shouldn't need to friggin FOLD! Know what I mean? Because it's a little hard to explain. A picture would be worth a thousand words.

Picture in your mind a mouthpiece rim with a perfect radius contour up until it drops down to the cup at the termination of the rim where we call it the "bite". Gee I HATE that term too. Al Cass pieces always had that very rounded bite. We played for years on them without running low on chops. Nor cutting our chops up.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel, you might be interested to know that Legends Mouthpieces makes an Al Cass replica. I have one and it's good mpc. Additionally, I have an original Cass and the Legends compares favorably to it.

https://legendsbrass.com/product-tag/al-cass/
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that you got very good at abusing your lip, and it seemed to work OK for a while, but now you're 'paying the price'.

The solution is to CHANGE and realize that playing high is based on 'learned skill', not extreme mpc pressure. I realize you are trying to use 'less pressure', but it's likely you haven't yet developed the skill and technique that is required with reduced pressure.

read my short list about 'embouchure basics' here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.docx
This won't explain all the details, but it will give you a good 'starting point', and help you avoid bad technique.
In your situation, I think that use of your lower jaw, and learning to use mpc pressure on your lower lip will be a big help.

ProgramCrazy wrote:
...
If I had to put a finger on it, it would probably be the years and years of having bad habits and probably using too much pressure.
...
Looking back, I went into this without a proper developed embouchure, and using the trumpet pinky ring to play higher notes....

_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you must do is stop playing. NOW. You will need a month off before you proceed. Then you need a new approach. You must eliminate the habits that got you here and develop productive habits.
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