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tommy_the_trumpet
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 Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: Maynard Ferguson Holton Trumpet |
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What is everyone's opinion on how the Maynard Ferguson MF Lt302S plays? What is it good for?
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I owned two different models of the Holton ST 302 MF Horn in college in the early 80's and enjoyed playing them in every ensemble and situation. It is a dependable large-bore trumpet designed by Maynard & Holton. Everyone's opinion will of course differ as we are all different.
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khedger
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Maynard Ferguson Holton Trumpet |
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| tommy_the_trumpet wrote: | | What is everyone's opinion on how the Maynard Ferguson MF Lt302S plays? What is it good for? |
My first self-bought pro horn was an MF horn which I purchased in 1975. I played it for a year and a half. Horn was excellent, just too big for me. I liked it, but I couldn't play with much range on it and it exhausted me to play it. I went to a Benge 3x+ which was a slightly smaller bore ( I think the MF was .468 and the Benge was .464). I was much more comfortable with the Benge.
But, seriously, the MF was a really well built, well playing horn. I'd recommend it for someone as long as they can handle the bore size....
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:56 am Post subject: |
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The Maynard models were designed for an immature market - the people making up that market, not the economics of it.
Holton built 8* models of mostly large bore traditional trumpets and outfitted them with a leadpipe and leadpipe-to-slide interface designed to produce maximal resistance for kids to blow their brains out against and thus, if they jammed that jet-tone into their face hard enough, they could get really high, really harsh and break some windows.
As market targeting and product development go, this was brilliant, and very successful. It had a lot to do with keeping Holton viable. Without the Maynard models, we would not have had the amazing T-101 Bach clones, the even better TM-2000 and its follow-up the T-105, and we probably would not still have the Farkas french horn available from Conn-Selmer.
The thing is, they inadvertently built a pretty decent trumpet on the other side of that devious leadpipe. With a different leadpipe designed for the bore progression and bell taper, it is amazing how good a player a 302 or a 304 for instance can become.
Based on Leblanc practices at the time, the 3XX numbering tells us this was intended as an intermediate horn. Decent, but still high margin thanks to cutting a lot of corners in production. Unaltered, that's pretty much what they are.
*yes, I said 8 but there were 10 models - the two bizarre collectible models are in their own class and not really relevant to this topic
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Tony Scodwell
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: Holton MF Horns |
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Why is it that this forum produces some outrageous theories on virtually everything having to do with trumpet design. For instance this discussion on the Holton trumpets played by Maynard Ferguson. Larry Ramirez was the man in charge of design at Holton and Sandy Sandberg was relatively new in charge of sales having left Getzen where he was instrumental in launching Doc Severinsen's solo career. At Holton Sandy enlisted Maynard, Al Hirt, Miles Davis, Bud Brisbois amongst others and Larry designed the trumpets they would endorse. The models of MF Horns were designed in conjunction with Maynard and were exactly what he was looking for at that time. He played them exclusively along with the other instruments Holton had made for him, most notably the SuperBone. As for the T 101, I was standing at the drafting table with Larry in Elkhorn while he was reverse engineering a Bach Strad. Those were lovely horns for sure and had medium acceptance due to Bach's overwhelming market presence. The later horns Miles wanted were as good as the early Martin trumpets and of course Miles performed on various colored models thanks to Larry's genius. Al Hirt and the LeBlanc Al Hirt model were another specially designed trumpet in production.
Holton had a number of student horns in production prior and the Farkus french horn was in production long before Vito Pascucci bought LeBlanc and absorbed Holton. For what it's worth, Farkus french horn production remained in Elkhorn with all trumpet production being at the LeBlanc plant in Kenosha. Upon Pascucci's death, the company was sold and everything was moved to the Cleveland area plants with only the Farkus french horn remaining in production at the new location. Both Kenosha and Elkhorn plants were closed.
Tony Scodwell
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theslawdawg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:22 am Post subject: |
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It's a terrible horn. Would never recommend it. PM me and I'll take it off your hands so you don't have to deal with it. 
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cheiden
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Holton built 8* models of mostly large bore traditional trumpets and outfitted them with a leadpipe and leadpipe-to-slide interface designed to produce maximal resistance for kids to blow their brains out against and thus, if they jammed that jet-tone into their face hard enough, they could get really high, really harsh and break some windows. |
Sounds like you have way more perspective than I, but just to share...
I was at a clinic in the mid-70's when Maynard introduced the ST302. Perhaps it was just marketing on his part, but he did mention that the tight leadpipe was required in the design was very specifically to compensate for JetTone mouthpiece. As he described it, his preferred cupless JetTone mouthpiece produced very little resistance.
Within a year I somehow managed to get my parents to buy me both an ST302 and a JetTone MF2, the piece with a mostly smooth transition from the rim curve straight down to the throat, no discernible cup.
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The Maynard models were designed for an immature market - the people making up that market, not the economics of it.
Holton built 8* models of mostly large bore traditional trumpets and outfitted them with a leadpipe and leadpipe-to-slide interface designed to produce maximal resistance for kids to blow their brains out against and thus, if they jammed that jet-tone into their face hard enough, they could get really high, really harsh and break some windows.
As market targeting and product development go, this was brilliant, and very successful. It had a lot to do with keeping Holton viable. Without the Maynard models, we would not have had the amazing T-101 Bach clones, the even better TM-2000 and its follow-up the T-105, and we probably would not still have the Farkas french horn available from Conn-Selmer.
The thing is, they inadvertently built a pretty decent trumpet on the other side of that devious leadpipe. With a different leadpipe designed for the bore progression and bell taper, it is amazing how good a player a 302 or a 304 for instance can become.
Based on Leblanc practices at the time, the 3XX numbering tells us this was intended as an intermediate horn. Decent, but still high margin thanks to cutting a lot of corners in production. Unaltered, that's pretty much what they are.
*yes, I said 8 but there were 10 models - the two bizarre collectible models are in their own class and not really relevant to this topic |
Are you suggesting that Maynard would attach his name and reputation to horns that were only "designed for an immature market"? He played those Holton models for a very long time. There were stories that people would come up to Maynard after a concert with their MF Horns and Maynard would offer to trade them straight across for his own. I don't know if this was true or just rumor control, but it would be interesting if someone would weigh in, perhaps a former member of his band, who has played these MF Horns and comment on how close Maynard's personal horns were to the off the shelf models.
Personally, I have played large bore horns professionally for the last 40+ years. While I don't own any Holton MF Horns and never have, I did get a chance to play a few recently and found them to play quite well. I guess that makes me one of the "immatures" previously referenced. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I am confused by the hostility in Mr. Scodwell's post. I don't really see where we disagree that much other than his omission of Ted Kexell as a driving force at Holton. I did not imply any design link to the Farkas horn, rather that the Maynard horns generated revenue that made Holton's survival possible and thus prevented those and the Bach clones falling victim to economics.
I would encourage him to do what I did and take horns apart. How they achieved what they did at such minimal cost is pure genius. Yes, Larry Ramirez is one of the greats.
But, at the end of the day, the Maynard models were made for kids, as many artist linked Holtons were. The model numbers say so, and Holton marketing materials are clearly thusly targeted. That's where the money was. Smart move.
As someone who was right in the middle of the conflict in expectations between Holton in those days and an artist who's name they wanted on a model, I can tell you that business concerns always trumped artists'. Holton needed profitable lines, that is why they wanted such linked products they could market on name image. But they had to be affordable, and that artists market, regardless of sophistication, needed to be matched in its expectations ( in this case, higher, louder, brighter - then still higher). While not exactly encouraging good technique, the Maynard models did this brilliantly, and going along with things though not necessary to Maynard's career, was certainly not something he was not going to subvert. He was a skilled promoter and businessman himself.
These horns should be appreciated as an amazing example of something that exceeded its design intent. Denying that they were intended for something mundane or casual just takes away from what was accomplished in terms of building a really solid affordable horn - with a screamer pipe in the way (And you really should try one with a less aggressive pipe)
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tommy_the_trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the opinions. I just wanted to know how most people felt about it. I've been trying to get my hands on one for awhile and I would really like to actually play one. So, if someone has one for sale or knows where I can try one out, please let me know!
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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To add to what Tony has said, Dave Stahl also plays and played a Holton Professional Model Trumpet (I believe the same Model as Brisbois).
As to them being produced "for an immature market" ... I cannot speak to that. It was my impression, at that time period, that Holton was producing a trumpet that the Artist (Maynard Ferguson) wanted in conjunction with him working with them in design.
The ST-302 looked and felt like a Professional Model Large-bore Bb Trumpet to me. I'd LOVE to own another one and wish I'd kept the two that I had. Guess that makes me an "immature player" also.
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Last edited by RussellDDixon on Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| tommy_the_trumpet wrote: | | Thanks for all the opinions. I just wanted to know how most people felt about it. I've been trying to get my hands on one for awhile and I would really like to actually play one. So, if someone has one for sale or knows where I can try one out, please let me know! |
https://www.blowwinds.com.au/product/holton-st302-trumpet/
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JeffM729
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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No one yet mentioned the Don Ellis quartertone trumpet or Maynard’s Firebird slide/valve combo trumpet made by Holton.
Very innovative and unique trumpets. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| JeffM729 wrote: | No one yet mentioned the Don Ellis quartertone trumpet or Maynard’s Firebird slide/valve combo trumpet made by Holton.
Very innovative and unique trumpets. |
There are many mote where those came from.
Beyond Dave Stahl playing a T-100 Symphony variant and Bud Brisbois playing a T-200, other Holton artists included EA Couturier, HL Clarke, Gustav Heim, Leonard Klatzkin, Edward Llewelyn, Renold Schilke, Don Berry, Vincent Bach, and many more.
1911 Holton built the first serious orchestral trumpet made in the US at a time everyone else viewed trumpets as a toy, and if an orchestral player were allowed a chromatic trumpet, their only choice was Besson.
1920 Holton pioneered open, minimally braced construction.
1927 Holton designed the first ultra light weight, ultra large bore (.485). Minimally braced, reversed trumpet defining the second branch of the modern trumpet family as Bach consolidated the definition of the traditional form combining the popular Besson design with that of the Holtons he had performed on.
1948 The Holton Stratodyne raises the bar in flexibility and response,
1956 Holton apprentice Renold Schilke launches his transformative B series in the Berry tradition.
And, of course, though Larry Ramirez came from Martin in the Leblanc merger and is best known for the gen-3 Committee, he produced amazing designs at Holton.
Holton produced over 200 models of Bb trumpets and cornets in 108 years, and did more to shape the modern trumpet than any other firm - perhaps even Besson. The Maynard models are just one small piece of that story, neither the very b st, nor the least of Holtons accomplishments.
And as a footnote, in the Leblanc period, identifying the tier of a trumpet was easy. Models in the 100s were the top tier, 300-400s were intermediate, 500s were step-up student level (part of why Hirt always played Leblanc, not the Holton) and 600s were beginner - though really good horns compared to how we see that tier today. Finally, 700s were seemingly for some undefined experiments. I am surprised the banana horn and firebird did not get 7xx numbers.
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www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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khedger
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
snip snip snip
*yes, I said 8 but there were 10 models - the two bizarre collectible models are in their own class and not really relevant to this topic |
By 'bizarre collectible models' I assume you're talking about the Firebird and
what's the other one?
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homebilly
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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ST-305 banana trumpet is the other perhaps
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | JeffM729 wrote: | No one yet mentioned the Don Ellis quartertone trumpet or Maynard’s Firebird slide/valve combo trumpet made by Holton.
Very innovative and unique trumpets. |
There are many mote where those came from.
Beyond Dave Stahl playing a T-100 Symphony variant and Bud Brisbois playing a T-200, other Holton artists included EA Couturier, HL Clarke, Gustav Heim, Leonard Klatzkin, Edward Llewelyn, Renold Schilke, Don Berry, Vincent Bach, and many more.
1911 Holton built the first serious orchestral trumpet made in the US at a time everyone else viewed trumpets as a toy, and if an orchestral player were allowed a chromatic trumpet, their only choice was Besson.
1920 Holton pioneered open, minimally braced construction.
1927 Holton designed the first ultra light weight, ultra large bore (.485). Minimally braced, reversed trumpet defining the second branch of the modern trumpet family as Bach consolidated the definition of the traditional form combining the popular Besson design with that of the Holtons he had performed on.
1948 The Holton Stratodyne raises the bar in flexibility and response,
1956 Holton apprentice Renold Schilke launches his transformative B series in the Berry tradition.
And, of course, though Larry Ramirez came from Martin in the Leblanc merger and is best known for the gen-3 Committee, he produced amazing designs at Holton.
Holton produced over 200 models of Bb trumpets and cornets in 108 years, and did more to shape the modern trumpet than any other firm - perhaps even Besson. The Maynard models are just one small piece of that story, neither the very b st, nor the least of Holtons accomplishments.
And as a footnote, in the Leblanc period, identifying the tier of a trumpet was easy. Models in the 100s were the top tier, 300-400s were intermediate, 500s were step-up student level (part of why Hirt always played Leblanc, not the Holton) and 600s were beginner - though really good horns compared to how we see that tier today. Finally, 700s were seemingly for some undefined experiments. I am surprised the banana horn and firebird did not get 7xx numbers. |
And how does all this walking down Holton's memory lane relate to the MF Horn? Well, I guess, since the MF Horn model numbers are in the 300 range, they have to be "intermediate horns for the immature market". And of course how does the Don Ellis quarter-tone trumpet and the Firebird valve/slide trumpet fit into this narrative? Well what immature student doesn't need to be able to play quarter tones and/or have an additional slide on their "intermediate" trumpet to be used in their school bands.
This lengthy narrative also would like us to believe that the folks at Holton have tipped their hands when assigning model numbers to some of their Artist Models, inferring that several of our trumpet playing heros were evidently just greedy shills for the Holton company.
Just so there is no confusion interpreting my sarcasm, I don't believe this to be true. I am no expert on Holton trumpets, but I have played them and don't believe that any of their Artist Models were "intermediate horns for the immature" masquerading as pro level horns. And unless someone can prove to me that the horns the artists played themselves were markedly different from the "off the shelf" horns, I will continue to believe that Holton's Artist Series horns were pro level. |
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Brent
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:50 am Post subject: Holton |
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Sometime ago, someone posted about Maynard switching to a Monette before he passed. He said it was a good horn, but also mentioned his Holton line
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theslawdawg
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Isn't a horn played by a pro, a pro level horn?
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Holton Advertising 'level' of instruments |
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I have a Holton advertising poster from 4/94 and here is a selection of various phrases used to describe the instruments.
from the intro section "... producing brasswinds and woodwinds that match the standards of some of the world's most discriminating and accomplished artists"
Collegiate trumpet T602 "will give the new student an encouraging start"
T101 trumpet "Premium Bb Trumpet for the most discerning player"
Maynard Ferguson trumpets and Superbone - no words pertaining to 'level'
French horns H100 / H101 / H 102 - "premium"
H104 Tuckwell "professional"
H109 Ultra Farkas "premium"
B101 - "baritone designed in collaboration with Leonard Falcone"
Jay
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