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homebilly
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Joined: 24 Dec 2010
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Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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 Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Isn't a horn played by a pro, a pro level horn?
this is how i have always seen things as i can frequently be seen playing any one of my beautiful OLDs Ambassadors or even my 1971 Getzen 300 on a pro gig
it ain't the bow.........
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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Holton Advertising 'level' of instruments |
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| JayKosta wrote: | I have a Holton advertising poster from 4/94 and here is a selection of various phrases used to describe the instruments.
from the intro section "... producing brasswinds and woodwinds that match the standards of some of the world's most discriminating and accomplished artists"
Collegiate trumpet T602 "will give the new student an encouraging start"
T101 trumpet "Premium Bb Trumpet for the most discerning player"
Maynard Ferguson trumpets and Superbone - no words pertaining to 'level'
French horns H100 / H101 / H 102 - "premium"
H104 Tuckwell "professional"
H109 Ultra Farkas "premium"
B101 - "baritone designed in collaboration with Leonard Falcone"
Jay |
Are you sure that was 94?? Maybe 84? There were only a couple Falcone baritones ever built - only one and a half in existence now as far as I know. He died in 1985 well after the Falcone model was (supposedly) defunct (ca. 1980).
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3297
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Holton Advertising 'level' of instruments |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
Are you sure that was 94?? Maybe 84? There were only a couple Falcone baritones ever built - only one and a half in existence now as far as I know. He died in 1985 well after the Falcone model was (supposedly) defunct (ca. 1980). |
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The poster is marked
G. LeBlanc Corporation. Revised 4/94. Printed in USA.
The photo of the B101 looks like a fairly tall, smallish bell throat (upright bell) euphonium. 4 front valves arranged in a curve. The front view picture (bell up) shows the mouthpiece on the left. So when played with the right hand, the right arm would go around the bell. Looks to be a thumb ring on the 1st valve slide.
note: the term "Falcone model" doesn't appear, just "designed in collaboration with Leonard Falcone".
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | Just so there is no confusion interpreting my sarcasm, I don't believe this to be true. I am no expert on Holton trumpets, but I have played them and don't believe that any of their Artist Models were "intermediate horns for the immature" masquerading as pro level horns. And unless someone can prove to me that the horns the artists played themselves were markedly different from the "off the shelf" horns, I will continue to believe that Holton's Artist Series horns were pro level. |
Believe what you wish. I respect Holton innovation, quality, durability and yes, at times, marketing.
I never said 300 level intermediates necessarily targeted the immature - I only said the Maynard models did. Holton built everything from artist-level to very good student level, and even a few mistakes like the FC model.
I too have played Holtons - my sample set is one or more examples of 107 unique models of Holton Bb cornets and trumpets. The only artist-linked models I have not played are one vocal version of the HC, the Gustat, and the Ellis. I have played on Fred Forman and Gustav Heim's personal Holtons named for them, one of Bach's, remarkably not artist linked, Holtons, and a horn Couturier hit the road with for 6 months in 1910.
Yes, Heim, Brisbois at times, Stahl, Klatzkin, etc. all did indeed play their models. I have every reason to believe Maynard did, at least often, as well. He had what it took to excel with a horn like that. Heim played Revelation Heim models made just for him. However, Al Hirt did not play on a T-500 or a C-501. He played a Courtois-built Leblanc Sonic X707. Couturier would grudgingly play his model, but made it clear how much he disliked it in 1913. Clarke got into some hot water with more than one company he lent his name to by getting caught with other makes on stage. Llewellyn, and his students Benge and Schilke often played Bessons with the CSO - even while selling Llewellyns to others. Gustat not only did not perform on his model, he developed a named model with Conn at the same time.
Thing is, not to many people had Maynard's chops - and selling horns in the 70s was about volume, so they had to be good for a broader market too.
Beyond remembering those days in Jr. & Sr. HS classrooms well, I now know what made the Maynard models function - what made them perfect for those kids Holton was smart enough to get to first, who wanted to screech out high notes in the gym or parking lot and measured their worth by the distance at which they could inflict pain (hmm, having the strongest trombone-related flashback from my youth as I type that). That those kids perceived Maynard's playing as only this and nothing of consequence more should be data enough to back my choice of the word "immature".
For exceptionally strong players, the Maynard models can be good choices for everything from community band to commercial work. Most of us are not in that class. And for those less strong players who just want to make a parking garage video for youtube, they're perfect.
I am sorry you feel hurt by how Holton classified some models, or that they marketed aggressively to more than just the handful of serious players in order to stay in business, but it is what it is.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Holton Advertising 'level' of instruments |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
Are you sure that was 94?? Maybe 84? There were only a couple Falcone baritones ever built - only one and a half in existence now as far as I know. He died in 1985 well after the Falcone model was (supposedly) defunct (ca. 1980). |
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The poster is marked
G. LeBlanc Corporation. Revised 4/94. Printed in USA.
The photo of the B101 looks like a fairly tall, smallish bell throat (upright bell) euphonium. 4 front valves arranged in a curve. The front view picture (bell up) shows the mouthpiece on the left. So when played with the right hand, the right arm would go around the bell. Looks to be a thumb ring on the 1st valve slide.
note: the term "Falcone model" doesn't appear, just "designed in collaboration with Leonard Falcone".
Jay |
The true Falcone baritone was patterned on a Conn 22i. Prototype 1 was cannibalized and the remains are at NMM. Prototype 2 Falcone gave to his grand-daughter as a starter horn. (Yes, the artist felt it was, at best, intermediate level)
If you had known him, you would know that him being dead a decade is the only way they didn't catch Hell for implying an endorsement like that!
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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terrys17
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Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 383
Location: St Augustine, FL
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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I bought an st302 in 1972 when mf came to our college. Great playing horn but too big for me at the time. I unfortunately sold it. Years later I tried a newer version which didn't play anywhere like the original. The owner of the store had the st302 that maynard played at our college. They were pretty consistent in those days.
The st200 was the bud brisbois model and the st100 was the model dave stahl played. The st100 was a ml bore. Dave bought two of these when he went on woody's band. He said the horn changed shortly after that he never found another one he liked. To my knowledge he still plays those original horns.
I bought an st200 about 12 years ago. It was one of the first years production and was amazing. (465 bore) Like a fool I sold it after a couple years and have been unable to find another one like that. Not sure exactly the year that the horns changed but there was a noticeable difference. Cost I would imagine |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| terrys17 wrote: | I bought an st302 in 1972 when mf came to our college. Great playing horn but too big for me at the time. I unfortunately sold it. Years later I tried a newer version which didn't play anywhere like the original. The owner of the store had the st302 that maynard played at our college. They were pretty consistent in those days.
The st200 was the bud brisbois model and the st100 was the model dave stahl played. The st100 was a ml bore. Dave bought two of these when he went on woody's band. He said the horn changed shortly after that he never found another one he liked. To my knowledge he still plays those original horns.
I bought an st200 about 12 years ago. It was one of the first years production and was amazing. (465 bore) Like a fool I sold it after a couple years and have been unable to find another one like that. Not sure exactly the year that the horns changed but there was a noticeable difference. Cost I would imagine |
Thank you for that post!
I too had noticed the change in the ST-100 from what seemed awfully close to the original T-100 to something else. I had assumed, as one might, that the change was a reflection of Stahl's input/tastes since his name really became strongly associated with the later horns (by Holton marketing), That he preferred the original paints a very different picture - but not at all a surprising one.
I haven't seen enough 200s to know the difference. I have only one sample. I realized it had been taken apart at a few major joints, and put back together with glue. I was going to get it apart and fix that, but I tried it first and it played so well I was afraid to touch it. Remarkable period horn.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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terrys17
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Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 383
Location: St Augustine, FL
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The earlier version st200 has a medalion on the tuning slide which is round on top and opens out toward the bottom (if that makes sense) The later ones have a round medalian. Also, the earlier ones have a fixed third valve slide finger ring. The later ones are adjustable. I have not been able to find another earlier model that I like as much as the first one. I have one now that is not bad but the first one was amazing |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| terrys17 wrote: | | The earlier version st200 has a medalion on the tuning slide which is round on top and opens out toward the bottom (if that makes sense) The later ones have a round medalian. Also, the earlier ones have a fixed third valve slide finger ring. The later ones are adjustable. I have not been able to find another earlier model that I like as much as the first one. I have one now that is not bad but the first one was amazing |
Looks like my 200 glue-special is the later version. Maybe the glue helps - pr maybe the cost conscious changes impacted consistency more than potential.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I remember once replacing a MF Horn bell. The new bell was noticeably heavier.
The same was true of a Holton Bass Trombone slide tube. The explanation I received was the scrap rate was too high due to loss the buffing room. The solution was to beef up the wall thickness.
So you see, decisions regarding design can be overruled when production becomes too difficult and costly.
Another example is Bach’s Sterling Plus (tm) bells. It’s not only the material cost but high failure rate that pushes the price higher.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | | I remember once replacing a MF Horn bell. The new bell was noticeably heavier. |
You may have nailed it Jim. It is no secret that the edgier, cutting trumpet sound favored in the 70s, that lighter bells alone wont be causal of, but often help greatly with, is not my favorite. Maybe that's why I liked that later 200.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | Just so there is no confusion interpreting my sarcasm, I don't believe this to be true. I am no expert on Holton trumpets, but I have played them and don't believe that any of their Artist Models were "intermediate horns for the immature" masquerading as pro level horns. And unless someone can prove to me that the horns the artists played themselves were markedly different from the "off the shelf" horns, I will continue to believe that Holton's Artist Series horns were pro level. |
Believe what you wish. I respect Holton innovation, quality, durability and yes, at times, marketing.
I never said 300 level intermediates necessarily targeted the immature - I only said the Maynard models did. Holton built everything from artist-level to very good student level, and even a few mistakes like the FC model.
I too have played Holtons - my sample set is one or more examples of 107 unique models of Holton Bb cornets and trumpets. The only artist-linked models I have not played are one vocal version of the HC, the Gustat, and the Ellis. I have played on Fred Forman and Gustav Heim's personal Holtons named for them, one of Bach's, remarkably not artist linked, Holtons, and a horn Couturier hit the road with for 6 months in 1910.
Yes, Heim, Brisbois at times, Stahl, Klatzkin, etc. all did indeed play their models. I have every reason to believe Maynard did, at least often, as well. He had what it took to excel with a horn like that. Heim played Revelation Heim models made just for him. However, Al Hirt did not play on a T-500 or a C-501. He played a Courtois-built Leblanc Sonic X707. Couturier would grudgingly play his model, but made it clear how much he disliked it in 1913. Clarke got into some hot water with more than one company he lent his name to by getting caught with other makes on stage. Llewellyn, and his students Benge and Schilke often played Bessons with the CSO - even while selling Llewellyns to others. Gustat not only did not perform on his model, he developed a named model with Conn at the same time.
Thing is, not to many people had Maynard's chops - and selling horns in the 70s was about volume, so they had to be good for a broader market too.
Beyond remembering those days in Jr. & Sr. HS classrooms well, I now know what made the Maynard models function - what made them perfect for those kids Holton was smart enough to get to first, who wanted to screech out high notes in the gym or parking lot and measured their worth by the distance at which they could inflict pain (hmm, having the strongest trombone-related flashback from my youth as I type that). That those kids perceived Maynard's playing as only this and nothing of consequence more should be data enough to back my choice of the word "immature".
For exceptionally strong players, the Maynard models can be good choices for everything from community band to commercial work. Most of us are not in that class. And for those less strong players who just want to make a parking garage video for youtube, they're perfect.
I am sorry you feel hurt by how Holton classified some models, or that they marketed aggressively to more than just the handful of serious players in order to stay in business, but it is what it is. |
"I am sorry you feel hurt by how Holton classified some models, or that they marketed aggressively to more than just the handful of serious players in order to stay in business, but it is what it is."
What make you think I am hurt? Pretty presumptuous I would say. I have no stake here. I don't play Holton, never have owned a Holton, and have never had any ties to the company. I just find it hard to believe that for decades, Maynard would play a horn that, as you claim, was intended by Holton as an "intermediate for the immature". Maynard played a lot of different horns over the years, yet it appears he played the Holton he helped design the longest.
The OP asked specifically about the MF Horn. How does taking a walk down Holton's memory lane as well as bringing up Heim, Klatzkin, Gustat, Llewellyn, et al. relate specifically to the OP's original inquiry? The only way I can see any relevance is if one were to be writing a term paper or masters' thesis on the MF Horn. I for one am interested in the Forum members' opinions and observations on specifically the MF Horn. I am done grading term papers. |
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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1960
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 am Post subject: MF Holtons |
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I am always amazed at what some posters feel is correct information. Let me relate a few true stories.
I had a very good friend who was hired to play on Maynard's band for two very good reasons. He was a hell of a good player and was a RN. This was during the last six months of Maynard's life and he wanted someone around him to make sure about his health. At a club in NYC my friend was out in the hall warming up and Maynard came out saying, "I didn't realize you had such great chops. I'll make sure some lead parts are in your book". Then he looked at my friend saying, "what's that horn you're playing?. Let me try it". After blowing on it he looked at my friend and said, "I see why you like that horn".
Back in the dressing room awaiting Dave Monette's visit Maynard said to my friend, "let me see that horn of yours again" and sat there holding it when Monette walked in. My friend told me the look on Monette's face was priceless. When Monette left Maynard said, "if you want to play a great trumpet go get my Holton".
About the Holton models...Larry Ramirez was head of design for Holton and I was standing next to his drafting table while he was reverse engineering a Bach Strad. That became the T 101 which was a very fine instrument with medium sales due to the presence worldwide of Bach.
Sandy Sandberg was newly arrived at Holton/LeBlanc from Getzen where he pretty much created Doc Severinsen's solo career with the Eterna trumpet. Sandy would drive Doc to concerts on weekends in his Chrysler, mostly in the midwest, when the Tonight Show was not on the air. Sandy was responsible for getting not only Maynard on board but Al Hirt, Miles Davis, Bud Brisbois and many great players he knew well. Larry Ramirez did the various designs which these guys all played. Maynard played his models full time and Larry created the "SuperBone" for him as well.
When Vito Pascucci died (owner of Holton/LeBlanc) the business was sold and some instruments were now being made in the Cleveland area. Prior to Pascucci's death, all trumpets were being made in Kenosha with only the old Elkhorn factory making Farkus french horns. After the sale most Holton branded instruments were discontinued with the Farkus french horn remaining.
I can assure you that the various signature Holton and LeBlanc models were always played by the player who endorsed them and for sure Maynard performed many years on his Holtons.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8998
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:59 am Post subject: |
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This is an aside, but a cautionary tale for inexperienced players.
According to this thread, Holtons were fine instruments. Yet, at the time, I wouldn't even consider one, thinking they were inferior to the Conn Constellation I bought. Reason? My teacher played a Conn.
Now, this is not to say that one's teacher's horn isn't good, just that other non-recommended horns are not necessarily inferior.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:04 am Post subject: Re: MF Holtons |
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| Tony Scodwell wrote: | I am always amazed at what some posters feel is correct information. Let me relate a few true stories.
I had a very good friend who was hired to play on Maynard's band for two very good reasons. He was a hell of a good player and was a RN. This was during the last six months of Maynard's life and he wanted someone around him to make sure about his health. At a club in NYC my friend was out in the hall warming up and Maynard came out saying, "I didn't realize you had such great chops. I'll make sure some lead parts are in your book". Then he looked at my friend saying, "what's that horn you're playing?. Let me try it". After blowing on it he looked at my friend and said, "I see why you like that horn".
Back in the dressing room awaiting Dave Monette's visit Maynard said to my friend, "let me see that horn of yours again" and sat there holding it when Monette walked in. My friend told me the look on Monette's face was priceless. When Monette left Maynard said, "if you want to play a great trumpet go get my Holton".
About the Holton models...Larry Ramirez was head of design for Holton and I was standing next to his drafting table while he was reverse engineering a Bach Strad. That became the T 101 which was a very fine instrument with medium sales due to the presence worldwide of Bach.
Sandy Sandberg was newly arrived at Holton/LeBlanc from Getzen where he pretty much created Doc Severinsen's solo career with the Eterna trumpet. Sandy would drive Doc to concerts on weekends in his Chrysler, mostly in the midwest, when the Tonight Show was not on the air. Sandy was responsible for getting not only Maynard on board but Al Hirt, Miles Davis, Bud Brisbois and many great players he knew well. Larry Ramirez did the various designs which these guys all played. Maynard played his models full time and Larry created the "SuperBone" for him as well.
When Vito Pascucci died (owner of Holton/LeBlanc) the business was sold and some instruments were now being made in the Cleveland area. Prior to Pascucci's death, all trumpets were being made in Kenosha with only the old Elkhorn factory making Farkus french horns. After the sale most Holton branded instruments were discontinued with the Farkus french horn remaining.
I can assure you that the various signature Holton and LeBlanc models were always played by the player who endorsed them and for sure Maynard performed many years on his Holtons.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Well, if this isn't a direct response to the OP's original query, I don't know what is. If anybody knows what's what, it's Tony Scodwell, the voice of knowledge, the voice of experience, the voice of reason. His most recent post lays to rest any notion that Maynard took one for the team (Holton) for decades by playing and endorsing what has been suggested here in previous posts to be an inferior "intermediate for the immature" horn.
Whether one likes the playing characteristics of the MF Horns or not, it has been made abundantly clear that Maynard like them, played them, and endorsed them for decades. That's good enough for me. Enough said. |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Tony for your insight, Larry was always very generous to answer any questions I might have. He’s the one that gave the answer to my bass trombone tube inquiry.
As for intermediate models, the Holton Admiral was one of the mid priced “step up” models. There was no misrepresentation and the price point reflected it’s place in the offerings. Not a pro and not a student model.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Liberty Lips
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 979
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | What make you think I am hurt? |
Your but hurt post was a pretty good indication.
This thread is a great example of how whack Trumpetherald has become. There is nothing in any of Euph's posts that is factually incorrect, but suggesting that the MF Horns were directed toward student and non-professional players has sent a few people here on what appears to be an LSD-induced tirade (appropriately enough, as MF was known to have gone down that road himself). I noticed that Tony Scodwell, who's credibility is undisputed, seems to have taken umbrage and offered a number of factual remarks that all, strangely, did not conflict with anything that Euph offered.
I'll end this post with my own very cherished opinion: Maynard Ferguson sounded A LOT better before he switched to Holton. |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: Re: MF Holtons |
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| Tony Scodwell wrote: | I can assure you that the various signature Holton and LeBlanc models were always played by the player who endorsed them and for sure Maynard performed many years on his Holtons.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
I'm sorry, that is not true. The part about Maynard is - backed by hundreds of photos, videos, interviews, etc. But not all the artists chose to play the instruments named for them. Some avoided, at least one outright refused.
Yes, it bothers me greatly when people start to make golden idols of their favorite objects, and aggressively deny any truth about them not in keeping with their theology. These are just tools. When you find one you love, fantastic! But you shouldn't feel the need to enforce an unrealistic idealic image of them on others. I am a bit of a Holton fan, but not a fanatic. Like us, most any horn that works for some, has its good and it's "otherwise". Can we leave it at that, or shall we all exercise our "otherwise" some more?
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Liberty Lips wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | What make you think I am hurt? |
Your but hurt post was a pretty good indication.
This thread is a great example of how whack Trumpetherald has become. There is nothing in any of Euph's posts that is factually incorrect, but suggesting that the MF Horns were directed toward student and non-professional players has sent a few people here on what appears to be an LSD-induced tirade (appropriately enough, as MF was known to have gone down that road himself). I noticed that Tony Scodwell, who's credibility is undisputed, seems to have taken umbrage and offered a number of factual remarks that all, strangely, did not conflict with anything that Euph offered.
I'll end this post with my own very cherished opinion: Maynard Ferguson sounded A LOT better before he switched to Holton. |
Hurt? Not in the least. Pissed? You bet. Inferring that Maynard sold out is indefensible. Claiming that Holton passed off an "intermediate" horn supposedly designed for the "immature" player as a pro level horn is insulting to Maynard. Proceeding to denigrate other Holton Artist models is also insulting, not to mention irrelevant to the OP's original post.
By the way, using the phrase "LSD-induced tirade" followed by referring to Maynard's supposed use of LSD certainly isn't germane to the conversation.
Now can we get back to the topic at hand, the OP's request for opinions on how the MF Horn Lt302S plays?
DISCLAIMER: I have not now, nor have I ever owned a Holton trumpet. |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Otherwise it is.
"Inferring that Maynard sold out" No one did, nor believes that he did
"Claiming Holton passed off an intermediate ... as a pro level" - that was not said. Holton was completely upfront designating these horns as 30X. If they Passed it off" in any way, it was passing off a better horn as only upper intermediate by their numbering. But at that time, I think people took a less jaded view of the word intermediate.
"Denigrate other Holton artist models" - facts as to the numbers the company assigned, and facts as to who did, and did not, perform on a particular one, are not denigrating. They are history.
You do make one valid point. I am not sure we ever answered how it plays (yes, my fault as far as the focus on how it WAS played). So, let me take a crack at a concise answer:
- classic seventies trumpet sound, if you have the chops to handle it (not so much core, but very trumpety. Some might say brassy, but clear or clean are also words used for the same idea)
- high resistance, excellent for those looking for major push-back as they go up.
- Tremendous projection
- 302 is A bit on the bright side
- goes over to edge very easily (maybe less so in later production if as Mr. Becker noted the bells got heavier)
- many people find them exhausting. Depends on what the player is comfortable with
- 302 is middle of the road on slotting. Some others are tighter, some others are looser. Leadpipe, slide and bell variations among models control this.
- one of the more responsive MF models.
- if you like a relaxed open blow, this ain't it.
- Playing low can be a bit challenging on these as the resistance makes a relaxed low register problematic.
You will never have consensus on intonation with these as the effect of the resistance varies too much with the player. Some will find it good for the period, some will not - its more them than it in both cases.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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