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Why don't we play the first E with the 3rd valve as standard


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Tro.sy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:28 am    Post subject: Why don't we play the first E with the 3rd valve as standard Reply with quote

I was wondering why is the standard way to play the first E (E on the first line) with 1st and 2nd valve although this way makes the E out of tune(too high) the same also goes for the A.
Do you play it with 1st and 2nd valve? Or rather with 3rd valve? I find it very annoying to use the first slide to keep it in tune. Any advice?
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gansch brothers play that E and A with 3, see their playing in the Performers category. But maybe that’s only for coloring.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The length of the 3 valve slides is chosen by the maker to give acceptable tuning when using all the 'standard' valve combinations. And it is typical for the length of valves 1+2 to be different than valve 3 alone.

Some people don't have good 'finger action' using valve 3 alone.

If using valve 3 alone works in your playing situations, then there is no reason not to use it.

Jay
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Irving
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you are asking why people are taught to play these notes with the first and second valves? They aren't in all countries. In some countries these notes are played with the third valve. When you reach a certain level of proficiency then you can decide when and how to play these notes.

There are advantages to each fingering so there is no need to exclude either.
lst and 2nd is sharp as the OP mentioned. 3rd is flat, so nothing is perfect with either fingering. The ring finger is weak and is the least used, so maybe that's why 1st and 2nd is taught. Use both fingerings, according to whichever one lays best in the moment. Why not?
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpets are desinged with the 3rd vavle slide to be mathematically longer than it would be in use by itself, to compensate for 2-3; lowering it's pitch (also helps with 1-3, and 1-2-3 combinations). Remember that any valve combination, because of math, is shorter than it needs to be.

You may find it's a better fit that 1-2 in certain circumstances, but I find that with notes in the staff, 3rd valve alone tends to be flat on most trumpets. In teaching students, alternate fingerings come up in etudes and practice drills for this and dexterity reasons. (I suggest practicing at various times using alternate fingerings for all available notes.)

Often this, 3rd valve, is a good choice for the A on top of the staff.. 1-2 is sharp, plus it's in that area of range as it's attained early gets "pintchy".. playing that A with 3rd brings it down, and also teaches the ear where, pitch-wise, that A should sit.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the third valve a lot. Especially high A. I use lower on a fast line. It really depends on where you're coming from or going or, where you fit with what else is going on.

There is nothing you can do to not use the slides when playing with others.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
The Gansch brothers play that E and A with 3, see their playing in the Performers category. But maybe that’s only for coloring.

I noticed this for the very first time yesterday watching the brothers playing duet. I only noticed Hans doing it specifically on A in the staff.

I have used 3rd only at times for A in the staff to help with quick phrases, and I regularly (not always) use it on A above the staff.
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1+2 fingering is much more accurate in both cases. If the valve slides on a 3 valve instrument are adjusted for the minimum total cent error, the 1+2 fingering hits A essentially on the money. The 3 fingering is 23 cents flat. For E, the 1+2 fingering is very close (2 cents sharp), while the 3 fingering is 21 cents flat.

This question is part of an interesting problem: what valve slide settings result in the minimum total cent error for the 6 semitones they produce? I haven't found an answer on the internet. Surely it can be calculate it algebraically, or so I thought. Well, it is a tough algebra problem for me and one I want to complete (assuming it actually is solvable algebraically). For the time being, I resorted to a computer search.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a reason manufacturers put thumb hooks on the the first valve slide on trumpets.
Learn how and when to use it.
Why do people make playing more difficult than it already is?
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beagle
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a very good video about this from kiwi brass man Trent Hamilton:

Link

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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beagle wrote:
Here's a very good video about this from kiwi brass man Trent Hamilton:

One error he makes is saying "these valves are all designed to be in tune when they are being used one at a time". If all 3 valves are tuned this way, the 1-2-3 fingering will be unusable for F# and C#, and 1-3 D will be 32.3 cents sharp.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:29 am    Post subject: Re: Why don't we play the first E with the 3rd valve as stan Reply with quote

Tro.sy wrote:
I was wondering why is the standard way to play the first E (E on the first line) with 1st and 2nd valve although this way makes the E out of tune(too high) the same also goes for the A.
Do you play it with 1st and 2nd valve? Or rather with 3rd valve? I find it very annoying to use the first slide to keep it in tune. Any advice?


Actually, it's not that simple. If the chord is a C Major (Bb Concert Major) and the note is E on the first line, then yes, if one plays it 1st and 2nd it will likely be a bit sharp, as the Major 3rd of a Major chord should lie a bit flat of even temperament. In this case, fingering the note 3rd valve will drop it a little in pitch and make it fit in much better.

But, if the chord is an A Major chord (G Concert Major) then that E represents the fifth of the chord, and as such, needs to lay a bit sharp of even temperament. In this case, 1st and 2nd valves is the way to go.

As for A, unless the key signature is F Major (Eb Concert Major) 1st and 2nd valve is almost always the way to go to make it slot as close to the correct relative pitch as possible.

A great example of using 3rd valve for A is with all the baroque music that are written in D concert. When played on a Piccolo Trumpet in A, the Pic will be played in the key of F Major, and in this case, all the A's will be fingered 3rd valve which not only makes the A just about right in pitch (a bit lower than equal temperament) but also makes the many trills in pieces such as Trumpet Voluntary much easier and smoother.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I typically do use third. I know plenty of others who do as well.

With regard to fingerings and intonation on a wide variety of notes though: I adjust my fingerings to the key I am in (in ensemble settings) and the characteristics of the particular horn I am using at the time.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I typically do use third. I know plenty of others who do as well.

With regard to fingerings and intonation on a wide variety of notes though: I adjust my fingerings to the key I am in (in ensemble settings) and the characteristics of the particular horn I am using at the time.


+1
I tend to use 3 for E but mostly 12 for A, because it's closer to in tune in most cases. And I know a lot of guys (including some heavyweights) who do the same thing.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using third valve alone for anything other than a trill or a tremolo feels weird to me. It feels uncertain to me after years of using 1 and 2.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Why don't we play the first E with the 3rd valve as stan Reply with quote

Tro.sy wrote:
I was wondering why is the standard way to play the first E (E on the first line) with 1st and 2nd valve although this way makes the E out of tune(too high) the same also goes for the A.
Do you play it with 1st and 2nd valve? Or rather with 3rd valve? I find it very annoying to use the first slide to keep it in tune. Any advice?

If someone hasn't already mentioned it.

Play the following.

- A fast trill from E to F using conventional fingering. Then try it using the 3rd valve for the E.

- A fast C scale using conventional vs the alternate fingering

- A fast two octave G scale up and down two octaves from the low G with both fingerings.

I believe there are more situations where the conventional fingering is more advantageous than the alternate fingering.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also play Charlier Étude 14 dedicated to this topic and decide what is the better fingering for you.
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beagle
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond16 wrote:
beagle wrote:
Here's a very good video about this from kiwi brass man Trent Hamilton:

One error he makes is saying "these valves are all designed to be in tune when they are being used one at a time". If all 3 valves are tuned this way, the 1-2-3 fingering will be unusable for F# and C#, and 1-3 D will be 32.3 cents sharp.


I've been doing a few calculations and your figure of 32.3 cents was spot on. Incidentally in this case C# would be 55.5 cents sharp.
The simplest improvement is just to lengthen the third valve. Changing the 1 and 2 valve lengths is a bit more sensitive, particularly if you look beyond the lower octave.

As far as I can tell, to get best tuning all over the horn you need the third valve to be a bit longer and the first and/or second valves very slightly shorter. It would be interesting to see what values trumpet manufacturers use.

Some interesting things I have discovered:
1. I was always told that only low C# and low D are very badly tuned. However my calculations show that low F# and low G are very nearly as bad.
2. If valve 1 and valve 2 are tuned perfectly for low Bb and low B respectively they will be 13.7 cents flat at D and Eb. This is not too bad, but it means you do not really want to make either of these valve tubings any longer as it would make these notes even flatter.
3. In most reasonable configurations I have looked at the 2-3 valve combination is a better tuning for the fourth space Eb than the 2nd valve alone.
4. If you tune your open C perfectly, your open G will be 1.9 cents sharp and open E will be 13.7 cents flat. These are not too bad, but as the E is much flatter than the G is sharp, perhaps it make sense to tune open C very slightly sharp.
5. Most likely your 3rd valve will not be as well tuned as 1-2
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play the combination that's in tune for where I'm playing (if I'm played the 3rd or the 5th, for example).
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what Robert P said. I was just getting ready to say basically the same thing.

1-2 seems better because of how quickly and gracefully you can go back and forth from e to f. You don't have to take your finger off the 1st valve. You just go up and down quickly the the 2nd.

Going up and down quickly with 1 and 3 probably won't flutter the notes as fast.

Also, lifting the 2nd valve just feels more like an ascending movement. Going from the 3rd valve to the 1st feels like a descending movement.
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