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Trouble playing High and wondering if its even possible


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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice.

As to how far up you can go and how well you can play those notes just varies from person to person no matter how good the technique.

Some guys got it and some guys don't.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice.

As to how far up you can go and how well you can play those notes just varies from person to person no matter how good the technique.

Some guys got it and some guys don't.

Yes, to the first statement.

Not sure about the rest.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Trumpetown wrote:
I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice.

As to how far up you can go and how well you can play those notes just varies from person to person no matter how good the technique.

Some guys got it and some guys don't.

Yes, to the first statement.

Not sure about the rest.


Despite of all the cheering stories here about DHC’s for everyone, I think here we get close to the reality.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice. ...

---------------------------------
It depends on what you mean by 'good practice'. If practice produces the physical changes that are needed to play higher, then it will be beneficial. But if the practice only reinforces and strengthens the physical aspects that inhibit playing higher, it's unlikely to be successful.

You can have lots of patience and practice swinging a bat with 1 hand !

Jay
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice.

As to how far up you can go and how well you can play those notes just varies from person to person no matter how good the technique.

Some guys got it and some guys don't.


I used to believe this.

However, with a willingness to attempt some different approaches, I was able to develop the ability to play solidly up to and above double C.

I was stuck for 45 years but was able to break through. I think that this is available to most of the players out there.

If you do what you have always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.

Steve
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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
Trumpetown wrote:
I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice.

As to how far up you can go and how well you can play those notes just varies from person to person no matter how good the technique.

Some guys got it and some guys don't.


I used to believe this.

However, with a willingness to attempt some different approaches, I was able to develop the ability to play solidly up to and above double C.

I was stuck for 45 years but was able to break through. I think that this is available to most of the players out there.

If you do what you have always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.

Steve


I like the optimism.

Did you find a good instructor? How did you do it?
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Sustained note
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recommend that you watch the following video by Jon Ruff, a professional trumpet player. He offers practical advice based on actual experience.
This is very generous of him:


Link

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sustained note wrote:
... video by Jon Ruff, a professional trumpet player. He offers practical advice based on actual experience. ...

Link

----------------------
I also like Jon Ruff's videos.
When watching this one, I suggest paying attention to the 'basic mechanics' and not so much to the extreme high range demonstrations.
I found the information at these locations especially good -
time 01:50
time 0800
time 10:20 to the end

Jay
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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've watched a couple of his videos. Sounds good. I'll check it out. Thank you.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hopeful to learn that even after 45 years, someone could still improve beyond what were likely considered 'physical limits'. I humbly bow to you sir.

For myself, I've set the goal of being able to play the single high C well and somewhat effortlessly (currently I'm actually 1 note beyond my goal, yay!). While I wouldn't mind being able to DHC or even higher, I'm not convinced I need it either. For myself I found that overly focusing on what my body does was actually counter productive. That being said, I do enjoy reading tips and watching video's like any other trumpet player out there. So keep it up!
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown,

I did not get an instructor.
I spent about two years trying every high note method that I could find. Bought a lot of books.

The method that finally worked out for me was Stevens-Costello. Even with that system I had to experiment around with mouthpiece placement, how to form my embouchure properly and things like that.

I think that the key things that worked for me were the forward jaw position, which is not natural for me, and figuring out how to tense up my lower lip in just the right way.

It was quite a journey of self discovery to figure out what would work for me.

Steve
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
Trumpetown,

I did not get an instructor.
I spent about two years trying every high note method that I could find. Bought a lot of books.

The method that finally worked out for me was Stevens-Costello. Even with that system I had to experiment around with mouthpiece placement, how to form my embouchure properly and things like that.

I think that the key things that worked for me were the forward jaw position, which is not natural for me, and figuring out how to tense up my lower lip in just the right way.

It was quite a journey of self discovery to figure out what would work for me.

Steve


Great post! Look it's really an obvious thing that Steve is writing about. That is once you've started to read & study the Stevens system. Like Steve I too had to screw around with mouthpiece placement and all sorts of small details. The kinds of things that no author can put into a book. And speaking of books? The Stevens system known as,

"The Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique & Embouchure Self Analysis" (this is title of the first edition and no long in print) Or,

"Embouchure Trouble & Self Analysis" by Roy Stevens (2nd edition)

Are the most logical studies ever written for trumpet development..

Why is range so damned important??

Because it eludes 99% of all trumpet players. And even some pretty strong lead players have suffered greatly during their careers. Because of serious inefficiencies in their chops. This requiring them to use brutal force to make it all happen.

Hey, you can do that. For a while that is but then Father Time starts taking his toll. And even if you do have pretty good range on the system you developed on your own there's simply no comparison to the kind of range and ease of playing associated with playing correctly.

The trumpet isn't complete by itself. Ours is one of the few instruments that you kinda gotta be playing at least a couple years just in order to sound half decent on it. This is not so with a piano. Not even a violin. Any beginner can play any note on these axes and sound just as good as anyone. Heck I knew plenty of beginning clarinetists who played solid G above high C. Why not trumpets?

So the Stevens system sets your chops to be able to play Double C right from the first day that you play the system! No guess work.. No foolin around with a flabby embouchure on a low note system and then years later begin building your range. This is the evolutionary method. Hey, I hate to hurt peoples feelings but this is an obsolete approach. If it sounds like I'm dissing your favorite approach I humbly apologize if this makes you feel poorly. But I guess that I am criticizing the other systems. In general that is. Although all systems have wisdom

I write long posts. Sorry bout that. But you don't have to listen to me. Go watch the Roy Roman videos on the "Roy Stevens Tribute Page". Watch them all. After Roman's mind expanding statement watch the last video featuring a 2006 talk by Dr William Moriarty. He's the editor of both editions of the Stevens System. His final quote being in my signature below. Go there now. Read, believe and fulfill your dreams.

There's a Great Treasure waiting there for you. Won't happen overnight. Yet if you're willing it'll always happen. Stevens-Costello does have some omissions. I discovered at least one that was crucial to me. And yet no other approach will consistently allow a trumpet player to utilize all physical laws in his favor. Instead of the great majority of trumpet players who play on limited embouchures.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
He watched one of those videos that uses false science to push a narrative regarding the tongue arch.

Specifically, one that says:, the tongue arch is the 2nd stage of "compression", and "compression" determines the pitch

He thought that this was literally correct and that the arch somehow directly controls the pitch. (Yes, players actually believe this.)

The same scenario occurred with me when i was a young player. Of course there was no favorable result so somehow I did it all wrong.


But you don’t mention that tongue arch can also be used to modify the jaw opening and lip placement? I don’t advocate this as you know but it can have an extreme effect on pitch, not because of compression because it hampers free flow of air, but because it CAN cause jaw slightly up and out which puts the lips in a better place to hit the extreme pivot points in the mouthpiece. These beneficial changes can be accomplished without tongue and does give better articulations, but it can still provide benefit - just without increasing compression which it doesn’t do. My rant
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:

The trumpet isn't complete by itself. Ours is one of the few instruments that you kinda gotta be playing at least a couple years just in order to sound half decent on it. This is not so with a piano. Not even a violin. Any beginner can play any note on these axes and sound just as good as anyone. Heck I knew plenty of beginning clarinetists who played solid G above high C. Why not trumpets?

Of tangential relevance to the thread and not naysaying the point about trumpet requiring a while to get a decent sound on but I have to assume you've never actually picked up a violin? How about oboe, sax, clarinet, bassoon etc.? The relevance to the thread is that your analogy is inaccurate. You should have stopped with piano.

I guarantee no day-one beginner on violin - or any bowed string instrument - sounds "just as good as anyone". I'm not talking about technical facility, I'm talking about just producing a tone. It's directly analogous to trumpet in that the sound you get is completely a function of subtleties of what you do with the instrument - bow hand technique, bow speed, bow pressure, how you start the bow stroke, bow angle, etc. Just keeping the bow on the right string is a challenge.

Go buy an inexpensive but better than a wall-hanger VSO violin - with an actual wood body (not plywood) and ebony fittings, say in the $150 - $300 range and see if you sound like Heiftez on your first attempt...or your 100th attempt.

One of many adult beginner progress videos. Some make faster progress than others, just like trumpet. This is typical - she would have benefited from better instruction - she has issues with her bow hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaugRxMz7tw
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Last edited by Robert P on Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Lionel wrote:

The trumpet isn't complete by itself. Ours is one of the few instruments that you kinda gotta be playing at least a couple years just in order to sound half decent on it. This is not so with a piano. Not even a violin. Any beginner can play any note on these axes and sound just as good as anyone. Heck I knew plenty of beginning clarinetists who played solid G above high C. Why not trumpets?

Not entirely relevant to the thread and not naysaying the point about trumpet requiring a while to get a decent sound on but I have to assume you've never actually picked up a violin? How about oboe, sax, clarinet, bassoon etc.?

I guarantee no day-one beginner on violin - or any bowed string instrument - sounds "just as good as anyone". I'm not talking about technical facility, I'm talking about just producing a tone. It's directly analogous to trumpet in that the sound you get is completely a function of subtleties of what you do with the instrument - bow hand technique, bow speed, bow pressure, how you start the bow stroke, bow angle, etc. Just keeping the bow on the right string is a challenge.

Go buy an inexpensive but better than a wall-hanger VSO violin - with an actual wood body (not plywood) and ebony fittings, say in the $150 - $300 range and see if you sound like Heiftez on your first attempt...or your 100th attempt.

One of many adult beginner progress videos. Some make faster progress than others, just like trumpet. This is typical - she would have benefited from better instruction - she has issues with her bow hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaugRxMz7tw


Well you're right about this response not being relevant. What I meant was that the complete range of the instrument is usually available to most other instrumentalists. If you want to be picky? Play a high note on a violin in pizzicato style. You'll get the note.

Heck even trombonists can swiftly learn to free buzz most notes in their range. Whereas until a young trumpet player builds some serious CHOPS and either unconsciously or purposely puts his mouth parts together in the most efficient way possible and continuously maintains this correct formation his ability to play in the upper register will usually remain limited at best.

Help me out here. I'm trying my best to communicate about an extremely helpful system. In fact I only started this thing in earnest last November. Around Thanksgiving. Today is just under eight months later. Already I almost feeling the ground move under my feet. My practice range includes a solid F/double C.

I challenge anyone to find another system that can take someone like myself, suffering from.a career destroying embouchure injury. Then start a completely foreign way of playing late last November. Immediately play soft G's/high C. Then take these squeaks down to the middle register all the while constantly maintaining the directed embouchure. And then through steady, daily practice gradually though on balance very swiftly demonstrate that this is a KILLER embouchure approach.

It's perfectly fair to question others ideas and if I knew you I'd gladly email or text a sound clip.

But dude, if you yourself is seriously interested in removing any range limitations that you may have as a trumpet player? And I'm pretty sure that you have some as most all of us do?

Then I highly suggest that you both buy the "Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique" from Colin Brass Publishing. Runs about 30 bucks with shipping. Then go to the "Roy Stevens Tribute Page" and watch all the videos. In fact? Go to the tribute site now. Listen to lead player Roy Roman ( now retired) explain the salient points of the book. Heck I can spare a few pointers for you myself too. Like don't close your teeth and make sure that yo u understsnd the "Two Aperture Theory"

There's a real treasure there. But as Aesop said,

"The crow would rather a precious gem be a single grain of corn"

As a hungry bird he had no use for the Jewel and would gladly trade in all of the world's most5 precious gems for just a single grain of corn.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Lionel, you certainly are an avid supporter of the system.

The book that I have is titled simply "Embouchure Self-Analysis"

This system is no panacea. I have found it useless below high C and have to do a little bit of a shift to bridge the registers. I can use it from low F# up to the C in the staff but the range from C in the staff to high C sounds terrible and I have little flexibility.

I spent a couple of years trying to get the same setting throughout the range of the horn but eventually gave up on that and just worked on getting a smooth transition.

Regarding the Roy Roman videos, it looks to me like Roy was born for this system. He has a face like a bulldog. I looked online for videos of Roy playing something in a middle register that requires some flexibility but didn't find anything like that. Only videos of him plying screaming lead parts or slow hymns.

Steve
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed watching the Bill Moriarity video - I think it provides a very concise description of major aspects of the Costello-Stevens technique.
See here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkpiO9ThrxQ&feature=youtu.be

The portions of the video that I think are most informative are:
time 04:30 thru 06:00
and
time 10:45 thru the end.

Jay
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone concisely summarize this and also tell me its relevance? I'm lost.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a good video but he confuses " speed" and "frequency" when discussing lip vibration.

But at least he recognizes that it is the lips that determines tonal success when air pressure is applied.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Lionel wrote:

The trumpet isn't complete by itself. Ours is one of the few instruments that you kinda gotta be playing at least a couple years just in order to sound half decent on it. This is not so with a piano. Not even a violin. Any beginner can play any note on these axes and sound just as good as anyone. Heck I knew plenty of beginning clarinetists who played solid G above high C. Why not trumpets?

Not entirely relevant to the thread and not naysaying the point about trumpet requiring a while to get a decent sound on but I have to assume you've never actually picked up a violin? How about oboe, sax, clarinet, bassoon etc.?

I guarantee no day-one beginner on violin - or any bowed string instrument - sounds "just as good as anyone". I'm not talking about technical facility, I'm talking about just producing a tone. It's directly analogous to trumpet in that the sound you get is completely a function of subtleties of what you do with the instrument - bow hand technique, bow speed, bow pressure, how you start the bow stroke, bow angle, etc. Just keeping the bow on the right string is a challenge.

Go buy an inexpensive but better than a wall-hanger VSO violin - with an actual wood body (not plywood) and ebony fittings, say in the $150 - $300 range and see if you sound like Heiftez on your first attempt...or your 100th attempt.

One of many adult beginner progress videos. Some make faster progress than others, just like trumpet. This is typical - she would have benefited from better instruction - she has issues with her bow hand.

What I meant was that the complete range of the instrument is usually available to most other instrumentalists. If you want to be picky? Play a high note on a violin in pizzicato style. You'll get the note...

Help me out here.

I am - by encouraging you to use accurate analogies. Piano is about the only instrument you mentioned that your analogy applies to - you should have stopped there. No, you're not going to pick up a sax, clarinet, flute or bassoon and play the extreme register "as good as anyone" or sound as good as anyone which is what you actually said. Extreme high notes are absolutely not guaranteed on violin - odds are you're going to get some godawful airy screech rather than a clear ringing note. Same principles apply - your bow technique has to be right and bowing is mostly how violin is played. It isn't guaranteed even playing pizzicato if your finger pressure isn't right.
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