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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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 Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Word. I played Sop., Alt., and Ten saxes professionally for twenty years. And taught them. You can't just pick one up and blow. Lets stick to facts, not what sounds good to ones self.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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Last edited by kehaulani on Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Post retracted because delano found it offensive. Sorry delano!
Last edited by deleted_user_687c31b on Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:42 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9008
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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I thought it was part of our responsibility not to let false information slip through the cracks that might mislead forum members. There's a difference between a quick correction and derailing a thread.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| hibidogrulez wrote: | | No offense guys but I'm more interested in trumpets and high notes than a debate on which instrument is hardest to play. I understand there's a specific sub forum for these kinds of arguments...would you continue there please? |
I stopped taking the OP's inquiry seriously when they couldn't be bothered to do what's needed to post video of themselves. |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| hibidogrulez wrote: | | No offense guys but I'm more interested in trumpets and high notes than a debate on which instrument is hardest to play. I understand there's a specific sub forum for these kinds of arguments...would you continue there please? |
Maybe it's a good idea to look around here on this forum for more than two weeks before starting to correct long time members here in their behavior.
BTW it's not your post. |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | Maybe it's a good idea to look around here on this forum for more than two weeks before starting to correct long time members here in their behavior.
BTW it's not your post. |
My humble apologies. Seniority is obviously more important than making a joke and I have no intention to start an argument. Sorry about my post, I'll remove it. |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| It's not about seniority, I only believe it's better to leave the corrections here to the moderators, they know the rules and have the experience to judge when corrections are necessary or not. Even then, it's difficult enough. |
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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Trumpetown wrote: | I'm starting to think that a persons ability to play in the upper register is just something that develops over time with patience and good practice.
As to how far up you can go and how well you can play those notes just varies from person to person no matter how good the technique.
Some guys got it and some guys don't. |
I agree that some people have an advantage - you and I are probably never going to play a double C with the same impunity as Maynard but for myself making a major improvement proved to be possible after changing aspects of my approach - merely practicing a lot didn't make much difference until I changed what I was doing.
A lot of people might be surprised at what's possible for them if they just find the key.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | ... for myself making a major improvement proved to be possible after changing aspects of my approach - merely practicing a lot didn't make much difference until I changed what I was doing.
A lot of people might be surprised at what's possible for them if they just find the key. |
Were any of the suggestions in the previous posts related to the 'key' that you found? |
Yup, 7th post in the thread. I also advised the OP to post video to try to get an idea of his specific issue, he came up with excuses instead of posting video.
| Quote: | | can you recommend a source of information about what was the key for you? |
No specific method - only my own "experiment and observe and try to be very aware of what I'm doing" method, trying to sort out the various sensations and be aware of what's actually happening. I've posted the general outline numerous times in here, so that would be a "source".
Before I got a better handle on my embouchure mechanics, simply doing endless exercises hoping things would fall into place helped develop finger dexterity and articulation within the range I had but didn't do much to help my chops and range. "Don't think about it, just put it up and blow" as some like to advocate was never anything but counter-productive for me. |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: |
No specific method - only my own "experiment and observe and try to be very aware of what I'm doing" method, trying to sort out the various sensations and be aware of what's actually happening. I've posted the general outline numerous times in here, so that would be a "source".
Before I got a better handle on my embouchure mechanics, simply doing endless exercises hoping things would fall into place helped develop finger dexterity and articulation within the range I had but didn't do much to help my chops and range. "Don't think about it, just put it up and blow" as some like to advocate was never anything but counter-productive for me. |
This is a good post. He apparently realized that his playing mechanics were once unable to develop a good upper register. So he analyzed the way he works his chops and finally developed both a placement and a set of embouchure muscle movements that worked properly.
It is so true that a great number of teachers will pooh pooh analysis. Claude Gordon was one of the worst offenders of this wishful thinking. And maybe in some cases the old "Just tongue and blow" advice is even useful. These ideas however are going to fail in most cases. An incorrect embouchure MUST be corrected before the complete range of the instrument can be obtained.
In most trumpet players the way that they set and use their chops will preclude the possibility of them ever blowing high notes. This is the Number 1, primary obstacle to the average trumpet player's development.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Lionel wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
No specific method - only my own "experiment and observe and try to be very aware of what I'm doing" method, trying to sort out the various sensations and be aware of what's actually happening. I've posted the general outline numerous times in here, so that would be a "source".
Before I got a better handle on my embouchure mechanics, simply doing endless exercises hoping things would fall into place helped develop finger dexterity and articulation within the range I had but didn't do much to help my chops and range. "Don't think about it, just put it up and blow" as some like to advocate was never anything but counter-productive for me. |
This is a good post. He apparently realized that his playing mechanics were once unable to develop a good upper register. So he analyzed the way he works his chops and finally developed both a placement and a set of embouchure muscle movements that worked properly.
It is so true that a great number of teachers will pooh pooh analysis. Claude Gordon was one of the worst offenders of this wishful thinking. And maybe in some cases the old "Just tongue and blow" advice is even useful. These ideas however are going to fail in most cases. An incorrect embouchure MUST be corrected before the complete range of the instrument can be obtained.
In most trumpet players the way that they set and use their chops will preclude the possibility of them ever blowing high notes. This is the Number 1, primary obstacle to the average trumpet player's development. |
I should also add that making a change to my teeth and finding a mouthpiece that worked better also helped. |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Robert P"]
I should also add that making a change to my teeth and finding a mouthpiece that worked better also helped{Quote/}
Robert,
What kind of dental work did you have done?
And Yes on using a better mouthpiece!! There exist lots of ways of getting a truly big sound on even the shallowest of mouthpieces. Back when I played Downstream (receded jaw embouchure setting) I had a mouthpiece customized to be even shallower than a Schilke 6A. In fact just by one's eyes alone you could tell the difference.
However after a month or so of integrating the new piece into my gear it started playing as big and ringing in sound as a Bach 7C. This was because I opened the back-bore up significantly. That & drilled the existing #28 throat down to a #23. THAT did it!
But then in the summer of '18 I had an awful dental accident and had to completely change my embouchure from
Downstream where arm pressure created most of my high range to,
Upstream where at first I could finally squeak any high note and my Rolled-In upper and lower lip permitted high notes. As opposed to arm pressure/force.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Lionel wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
I should also add that making a change to my teeth and finding a mouthpiece that worked better also helped |
Robert,
What kind of dental work did you have done?
And Yes on using a better mouthpiece!! There exist lots of ways of getting a truly big sound on even the shallowest of mouthpieces. Back when I played Downstream (receded jaw embouchure setting) I had a mouthpiece customized to be even shallower than a Schilke 6A. In fact just by one's eyes alone you could tell the difference.
However after a month or so of integrating the new piece into my gear it started playing as big and ringing in sound as a Bach 7C. This was because I opened the back-bore up significantly. That & drilled the existing #28 throat down to a #23. THAT did it!
But then in the summer of '18 I had an awful dental accident and had to completely change my embouchure from
Downstream where arm pressure created most of my high range to,
Upstream where at first I could finally squeak any high note and my Rolled-In upper and lower lip permitted high notes. As opposed to arm pressure/force. |
Shortened my maxillary central incisors to where they were even with the lateral incisors. I noticed that many good players tend to have short, even upper teeth and I got the feeling mine were impeding the air flow and vibration.
Along with the teeth I moved my placement to a more centered location. It's basically dead-center now.
It's not like it immediately added a 5th to my range or anything but what I did notice immediately was that notes spoke more readily and it was less work to get more volume. So it was definitely allowing for a more robust sound.
It took a while to experiment with the balance of things to make more range happen. I played on that Jet-Tone for a long time but probably would have benefited from a different mp. I don't even like the way that JT feels now.
The "sweet spot" mp for me so far is a Yamaha Bobby Shew Lead. I went on a quest looking for something that worked better than that JT and I was using a Schilke 14A4A for a while but while it was less restrictive than the JT it still wasn't what I was looking for. The rim feels "off" to me and the response of it feels...weird, maybe something to do with that double cup shape? The Shew Lead isn't as small and shallow as the JT but higher notes are bigger and easier. I've also tried a Yamaha Allen Vizzutti which is similar to the Bobby Shew Lead and is similarly comfortable but it's enough different that it doesn't give the same upper register aid. |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: |
Shortened my maxillary central incisors to where they were even with the lateral incisors. I noticed that many good players tend to have short, even upper teeth and I got the feeling mine were impeding the air flow and vibration.
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I love this kind of statistics. They told me that a lot of double C players drink Heineken so the last 6 months I spent all my money on Heineken bottles. Up to now my range did not improve but I will give it another try for a few years. |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
Shortened my maxillary central incisors to where they were even with the lateral incisors. I noticed that many good players tend to have short, even upper teeth and I got the feeling mine were impeding the air flow and vibration.
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I love this kind of statistics. They told me that a lot of double C players drink Heineken so the last 6 months I spent all my money on Heineken bottles. Up to now my range did not improve but I will give it another try for a few years. |
Not sure what you're saying...? |
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Jaw04
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 899
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, OP, it is possible! Don't worry about the shape of your lips. Keep working on it and try different things. Believe in yourself and don't play with frustration. If you practice all the time mad about your range you will engrain that into your playing more and more, and lose the joy of playing the trumpet that is so vital. |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | delano wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
Shortened my maxillary central incisors to where they were even with the lateral incisors. I noticed that many good players tend to have short, even upper teeth and I got the feeling mine were impeding the air flow and vibration.
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I love this kind of statistics. They told me that a lot of double C players drink Heineken so the last 6 months I spent all my money on Heineken bottles. Up to now my range did not improve but I will give it another try for a few years. |
Not sure what you're saying...? |
There is a difficult and very problematic relation between statistics and casual connection, especially when intuition is involved. What to do if double C players are more often divorced or if they beat their kids? It's possible that even teeth has to do with it but at the same time it can be pure coincidence. |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | delano wrote: | | Robert P wrote: |
Shortened my maxillary central incisors to where they were even with the lateral incisors. I noticed that many good players tend to have short, even upper teeth and I got the feeling mine were impeding the air flow and vibration.
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I love this kind of statistics. They told me that a lot of double C players drink Heineken so the last 6 months I spent all my money on Heineken bottles. Up to now my range did not improve but I will give it another try for a few years. |
Not sure what you're saying...? |
There is a difficult and very problematic relation between statistics and casual connection, especially when intuition is involved. What to do if double C players are more often divorced or if they beat their kids? It's possible that even teeth has to do with it but at the same time it can be pure coincidence. |
Being divorced, beating your kids and drinking beer aren't physical characteristics related to the physical act of playing the trumpet.
You think there's only a "casual" connection between the teeth and playing?
I can tell you that altering my teeth made a definite difference for the better for me.
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SteveDurand
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Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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