Water key tension has major affect on resistance of blow!!

[improver]

I have a Bach 37 that I've had for over 20 years that was the most beautiful blowing and playing Bach ever. Then the main tuning slide got worn and I got it adjusted and valves aligned, but it never played the same. It just didn't blow as free. I've been fiddling with it for a year thinking it will never play liken it originally played again. I put in New springs, readjusted the main slide to no avail. Then one day I loosened the 3rd valve screws and it played more open. Then I read on here the main water spring tension has a large affect. I just assumed the tech got that right. He didnt.. I worked with it yesterday tightening and loosening the spring screw and it is amazing. I'm going on record as saying this is as important if not more than a valve alignment. Feel free to opine.

[falado]

Hi, I learned this some years ago when I brought my Schilke to Jim Becker at Osmun for a PVA, etc. I complained about how it wasn't playing. When I picked up the horn he instructed me to play it. I still didn't like it, slots, etc. seemed stiff and the horn just didn't play for me. He then loosened the water key screw and viola, it was a totally different horn and was easy to play. It seems that when the screw is tightened too much it put tension on the tuning slide and perhaps at one of the nodal points. Such an easy and unknowing fix for a stuffy horn. Go figure, but that's why you pay someone who knows how to remedy these things. I can think of a few horns I've owned that could have been saved by this kind of tweaking and blueprinting.

Dave
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FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[James Becker]

The funny thing about water key screw tension, not everyone likes the same thing. Depending on the amount of feedback a player requires, perhaps more or less tension in the water key strikes the right balance.

I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[Dr. Manhattan]

Very interesting topic which got me thinking.....
While most trumpets have the water key attached above/before the water port, would water key screw tension on a Martin Committee have the same effect since where it attaches is after the water port? Before/after nodal points?
I know, I could test this myself but right now I am trying to work through my Dystonia issue and can barely play.
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Several Trumpets and Flugelhorns!
Trying to thin the small herd!!

[lipshurt]

this happened to me last week, for the first time i noticed a big difference. With the screw tightened it played worse. I did some checking, and with the spring tight, the water key would not close all the way. if i did a suction test on the slide, it would seem fine. But when i did a bubble test, sometimes the slide would leak a TINY amount when closeing. not every time either, like randomly it would not quite close. Loosening the screw allowed to it always to close. Like the tight screw impinged the movement of the water key. If i wrapped a rubber band around the the water key, it would be fine even with the screw tight. Solution was to replace the spring with a stronger spring. Sometimes the water key gets overlooked when there are weird problems with a trumpet. Especially ones with amado water keys. I do not like those things, cuz a LOT of them leak. Not saying that screw tension is voodoo, just throwing it out there that tuning slides can be the culprit. One other related thing is that if you have three identical tuning slides, they may all play differently. Its usually attributed to the tension in the legs, or variance in dimensions, but really most of it is the water keys. The strength of the seal, and the material of the pad, and i guess the tension of the screw
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[cgaiii]

Interesting topic. I will have to experiment on some horns. Until the last post, I was thinking this was a good argument for Amado water keys. I have them on several horns, but have never hand any of the leak. I actually prefer them.

So is the conclusion that the spring tension has an effect in itself or that it just causes leaks if wrong?
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[LittleRusty]

[JayKosta]

[cgaiii]

[etc-etc]

[shofarguy]

This sort of thing is where the phrase "Everything changes everything" came from. Flip Oakes is the one who showed me how little it takes to radically change the feel of how a horn plays. Frankly, it's staggering!

When Flip was developing his accessory valve cap system, I learned just how tension can affect things. As the weight went up, so did the sensitivity to how tightly those caps got screwed on. Whether I installed O-rings between the caps and casings made a noticeable difference, too. And it mattered which valve cap on which case was tight or loose. We tried a lot of different combinations.

There was a time, back in 2009, that I went to Flip's shop to try one of his #1J tuning slides. He had one in stock and sat down to clean it up on the reamer. The upper slide tube was a little undersized and it got stuck on the .470" reamer. Flip wrestled with it and finally twisted it loose. I took it home and began to practice with it.

That slide never played for me. There were some notes above the staff that it fairly refused to play. It was a fight! I called Flip about it and he told me to return it. Later that year, he came to my 50th birthday party and brought a new slide as a present. That slide was incredible and I used it exclusively on that horn and kept it after trading for the copper bell version I have now.

One surprise, which was kind of a forehead slapper, is how flipping the 2nd valve slide around can make a noticeable difference. Try it! The only horn I've owned that didn't feel different doing this was my Schilke X4. All of the Kanstul horns I've played have been affected by this one little trick.

It reminds me of something Byron Autrey told me in one of our phone conversations. He claimed that often a horn would play better with the tuning slide crook soldered one direction than it would if he reversed it. Does it have to do with the direction the sizing balls are forced through the tubing when the part is formed? Something else?? Who can say?
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[OldSchoolEuph]

Water key screws definitively can impact both sound and feel.

If the screw is too tight, the tension on the slide seems to have an effect - on some horns (Bach in particular). The nodal point theory offered above may be related.

Again if the screw is too tight, it will have the same effect as a dry or just cheap cork (substitute, no one makes real cork any more), restricting movement that creates a leak, making the horn stuffy as H____.

Finally, if the screw is too tight, it increases the structural connection between the body of the horn and the extended placement of the mass of the key itself. It may not seem like much proportionate to all the rest of that brass, but placement is everything. Hanging even a small mass off the side of the system has impacts that vary in intensity and in overall effect depending on the rest of the system.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[michael_bxl]

Just to support the idea of the importance of the spring of the water key, what came to my mind is for exemple the "new feature" of the new Yamaha commercial trumpet : "curled water key springs for a quick and precise response"

Hard to believe in fact it can impact so much on the sound, but I Yamaha says so I guess it does, and the fact that all these little details can change stuff so much disturbs my mind
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Yamaha YTR-6335RC
Yamaha YFH-8310ZG

[Andy Cooper]

One would have to have way too much time on their hands to try this - but if you remove the spring and cork, unsoldered the water key then assembled the key/holder tightening the screw down fully then soldered it back on with the tightened screw in place - would you then have the same problem when you re-assemble the water key with spring and tighten it down?


Reversing 2nd slide - yes seems to be a factor. Then again it may have to do with how the slide tubing matches up. I've improved "dead" 2nd valve notes by putting a bevel on some slightly off tubing edges.

[etc-etc]

[jadickson]

I find that the best way to test this is with pianisimo entrances. Try starting a very soft song like "Air On A G String", or play your Clarke studies, at pianisimo level.

For me, if the screw is too loose, I will get a "pfffAAAH" at the beginning. But if it is just tight enough, the note speaks immediately.

For me, the screw on my Bach should be "finger tight." Meaning, as tight as I can get it with just my fingers. It could be tighter if I got a tool ( 1/4" ratchet or wrench), but when I start making it that tight, the depth of tone disappears.

Of course other things in the system must also be right. Mouthpiece gap, tuning slide position, etc.

Then you can start playing around with brass vs plastic valve guides. Michael Sachs likes plastic in 1 & 2, and brass in 3, on his Bach. On and on it goes...

It does make you realize how delicate these instruments are... how just a tiny change can affect everything.

[Dennis78]

Finger tight to someone like me could lead me to breaking something
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a few different ones

[bluesholyman]

Very interesting read. I just replaced the spring and water key cork on the 1920's Vega I have. The water key screw took a rag with pliers to remove, even though it was knurled. Pretty sure I put it back in a bit beyond finger tight, but no pliers.

I'll have to play with this and see if there is anything noticeable change...

[HERMOKIWI]

Assuming that the water key isn't leaking, why would adjusting the spring tension of the water key have any effect on the playing characteristics or sound of the horn, let alone a big effect?

To the extent players say that it has a big effect, I'm in no position to argue with what they perceive happens. So, I want to make it clear that I'm not being argumentative. I'm just looking for an explanation that meets a logical objective standard.

Jon Faddis plays a Schilke without a water key but I thought his purpose was to eliminate disruption to the sound caused by the presence of a water key hole.

Maybe a manufacturer or experienced technician can chime in here.
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HERMOKIWI

[Dennis78]

I wish all my horns had no water keys. On a BBB cornet they’re pretty much useless anyway. How hard is it to just dump a slide or twirl the horn a couple times?
I’ve felt a difference when the screw is to tight-make the horn seem squirerly.
To loose and it’s stuffy
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a few different ones