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What is your strategy to play all trumpet notes in tune?


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Tro.sy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:02 pm    Post subject: What is your strategy to play all trumpet notes in tune? Reply with quote

Hello,
i have been trying again and again to get all the notes on my Trumpet in tune but it never works..
Following notes that are out of tune on my trumpet:
Low notes (from the first line)
D and C too sharp (these notes are too sharp on every Trumpet)
F too sharp
G too sharp
A too sharp
Third space C# too low
Fourth line D (too low)
Fifth line F (too sharp )
And other notes on the upper register


I am getting crazy while using the tunnig slides the whole time. So what is the most practical solution??!! [/b]
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's important to realize that an electronic tuner does not indicate the 'correct pitch' for every note when playing with a wind band, or other wind instrument players.

The electronic tuner is adjusted for 'equal temperament tuning' such as for a piano. That tuning temperament is fine for instruments that CANNOT have their pitches adjusted 'on the fly' by the player. Equal Temperament is a 'compromise tuning' method that works acceptably well in most situations - it IS NOT the tuning standard that gives the best sounding notes.
Try playing major 3rds on a piano and hear how bad they sound, a major 3rd on a wind instrument should sound good!

Most wind instruments and strings attempt to play in what is call 'Just Temperament' because that is what gives the best sounding chords and intervals. But the pitches are controlled by the player by careful listening and reacting.

I suggest setting your main tuning slide to the position that give the 'best pitch' for the no-valve notes of G and C in the staff.
Then play Major scales in several keys (e.g. F G Bb D Eb A) - trying to make the interval changes for each scale sound 'correct'. Then work on the chords of those scales, to make them all sound good.

When playing some pieces, you might notice that the standard note fingering doesn't sound quite right, try the alternate fingerings for that note and see if any work better. On a piece in Eb that I play the C in the staff sounds much better played 23 instead of open - because it is often used along with the lower Eb and Ab.

And of course, learn when to use the 1st and 3rd valve slides ...

Jay
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't hear it in tune in your head, it'll never some out in tune from your horn.

On the other hand, if you can hear it in tune in your mind, you can play it in tune on your horn.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Equal Temperament is a 'compromise tuning' method that works acceptably well in most situations - it IS NOT the tuning standard that gives the best sounding notes.


In a great deal of music from the 20th and 21st centuries, that's simply not true. Much of the time, equal temperament is the modern standard for intonation, and just intonation is a compromise that may not give the best sounding notes. Just intonation can give a certain resonant sweet sound to major triads, but it can be out of tune with the piano, the guitar, the harp, the vibes, the synth, etc, and certain harmonic structures are out of tune if just intonation is used.

In bebop and other kinds of jazz, for instance, the whole concept of substitute dominance relies on the major thirds being equal-tempered. In many contexts, the equal-tempered major third sounds in tune, and the just major third just sounds wrong. The notion that equal temperament is a compromise that "is not the tuning standard that give the best sounding notes" works in some kinds of music and in some kinds of ensembles, but sometimes not.

Some of this depends on the players experience and listening history. Extensive exposure to the sound of a piano being tuned can train the ear to hear equal temperament as the modern standard. Over and over, major tenths are played up and down the keyboard, and they all have to have the same tonal quality, and just intonation just won't do that. It's helpful to be able to think of just and equal temperaments as two different things, and each has its place where it its what's in tune for the situation. If you play a piece by Gabrieli one day in a brass quintet, and piece by Coltrane in a jazz quintet the next day, you need to able to dance back and forth between intonation schemes. Neither Gabrieli's or Coltrane's music is inherently better or more correct than the other, and likewise, neither equal temperament not just intonation is inherently more correct or better than the other. And for some music from outside Europe and North America, both twelve-tone equal temperament and just intonation can be woefully out of tune.

Wind players are lucky to be able to choose the intonation standard that fits the music and the ensemble, and I think trumpet player should be trained (or train themselves) to be flexible enough to hear equal temperament as the correct tuning standard when it's appropriate.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tro.sy, I don't know your level of playing so don't be offended if this too rudimentary for you, but have you had somebody else who's a competent player, play your horn? It sounds to me like a physical problem with your instrument.

If it isn't your horn, I go with what Crazy Finn said.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
If you can't hear it in tune in your head, it'll never some out in tune from your horn.

On the other hand, if you can hear it in tune in your mind, you can play it in tune on your horn.


Precisely.

Those are common out-of-tune notes on damn near every horn - just varying degrees of what pitch is where.

Drones, Tonal Energy tuner (set to ultra fine and play long tones, and appreciate what a cent or 5 cents sounds and feels like), record yourself playing chords and so on - then you realise there's no set pitch. You must develop your ears to play "in tune" but the most beautiful "in tune" is most likely not exactly what the meter says. It wouldn't hurt to read up about intonation systems - Just and Equal would be the 2 I would start with.

Good luck, welcome to getting your ass kicked by a piece of tubing


Best,
Mike
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falado
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, what is the make and model of your trumpet? If you've been playing or had it for a long time without maintaining the instrument you might need a PVA (precision valve alignment) or blueprinting. Especially if you've been pounding the valves. This might help a little. Keep in mind wind instruments are not in tune with themselves and, yes, we do need to do some compensating. However, tuning is also affected by the harmonic series (key) in which you are playing. On many horns the 1&2, 1&3, 1,2, & 3 valve combination can be slightly sharp, etc. This is why we have the ring on 1st and 3rd valves. I was watching a video on another thread recently of a marvelous performance of Charlier 1 and 2 and I noticed the performer's slides were constantly being used. Google Just vs equal temperament, https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html
and you will see what I mean. Anyway, the condition and manufacturing of your trumpet can have an effect on tuning.

Dave
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some have jumped way ahead and written about fine or micro tuning.

I think you're really asking about gross or macro tuning. Yes! The trumpet is an imperfect instrument. When we tune (with the main tuning slide) and we're comfortable with that note, many if not most of the other notes are not in tune.

Pitch is affected by the trumpet, the mouthpiece, and you.
- better trumpets will play better in regards to tuning, but not perfect
- a well designed mouthpiece that fits you and the trumpet will help
- as you grow as a player, you will learn where each note sits and be able to control its pitch/tone, with a combination of "lipping", valve slide movements (when available), and alternate fingering.

Baically, if you hear the note out of tune you need to do whatever it takes to move it to a better place. With practice you will learn to do this quickly/automatically. Your ear will be your guide.

In practice, I like to tune most trumpets to the middle staff "B", 2nd valve. It often is less slippery than the open C (1/2 step higher). Thus, in general a better reference point.
As you practice scales and other drills, use your tuner or a piano to see and HEAR each note's tendancy and its adjustment.

To aid with your understanding of what's going on, here's a quick article. Notice that this shows the natural tuning discrepancies in the harmonic overtone series. the root of tuning issues you're asking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)
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slipperyjoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worth reading:

How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)
https://tinyurl.com/y9sdkcyd
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mm55
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slipperyjoe wrote:
Worth reading:

How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)
https://tinyurl.com/y9sdkcyd


Those who appreciate bebop, "Coltranian" harmony, whole-tone scales, Hindemith, the symmetry of augmented triads and diminished seventh chords, freedom of modulation, substitute dominants, keyboards, fretted instruments, Stravinsky, chromaticism, pipe organs, et 12TET cetera, might disagree with the premise of the book.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gad, am I too simple? It seems to me just a matter of having a good horn and using your ear.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Train your ear, the horn will come along.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Train your ear, the horn will come along.


+1
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

audiate
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different horns use different models of intonation, as well. For example, many vintage horns, including Buescher, Conn, and some Olds, slot wide and don't have a tuning aid on the first valve because they don't need one. A player is expected to lip the note into tune.

Bach horns are a bit different, and the first slide is expected to be used, because its length is such that more notes using it are closer in tune at the expense of one or two that require the slide to come out a bit.

Getzen horns also have their own intonation tendencies that are unique to them, near as I can tell.

But part of the frustration and also joy is playing in an ensemble and being able to tune the note you're playing so that it fits in the chord structure. A loose-slotting horn helps that.

Tom
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play with recordings, play with drones. Record yourself. Sing a lot. Transcribe good playing (jazz, or classical) and play along with the recordings. Use the slides when needed.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been said before...
Practice and learn to listen to and for pitches. You must learn to hear the note before you play it. That requires slow, steady practice until it becomes second nature. It's not string theory physics.
Listen to truly good players on YouTube. Don't pay any attention to the many mediocre players on there who think they have all they answers and can't either put air through the horn or play in tune.
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Tro.sy
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to add that i have 2 trumpets one is from Carol Brass and the other one is from Yamaha. I have the problem with trumpets in general not only wiht my trumpet. I have never played on a trumpet that is perfectly in tune. My main Trumpet is Carol Brass CTR-5060H-GSS-Bb-L but i have the same issue with my Yamaha trumpet.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tro.sy wrote:
I just wanted to add that i have 2 trumpets one is from Carol Brass and the other one is from Yamaha. I have the problem with trumpets in general not only wiht my trumpet. I have never played on a trumpet that is perfectly in tune. My main Trumpet is Carol Brass CTR-5060H-GSS-Bb-L but i have the same issue with my Yamaha trumpet.


Without using the slides, map the notes. Pick an open note to tune on, and then play each note in its resonant center and then look at the tuner to see how flat or sharp it is.

Then present us that map and we can help more.

It's possible that the mouthpiece you're using isn't a very good match for your horn or these horns just slot too tightly for how you want to play them. There are also gap adjustments that can be made as well. But without knowing the map, anything right now is a guess.

No horn is ever perfectly in tune. It's a series of compromises designed to get you close enough that you can use your lips and slides to play in tune with an ensemble. Remember, with wind instruments, an A# and a Bb aren't always the same note.

Tom
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Blackquill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry there is no magical formula to make trumpet notes play in tune without making adjustments....I hope you don't think that good technique automatically makes your playing more in-tune, because it doesn't, really.

In my experience (and also advice from my incredibly talented college band director), simply practicing playing notes in tune with a tuner by yourself actually helps; granted, you'll want to practice playing them in tune WITHOUT a tuner, as well. Then, when playing with other good players, learning to play in tune with them will become easier, as long as you use your ears.
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