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What is your strategy to play all trumpet notes in tune?


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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude. You are the instrument. Just play in tune.
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Bill_Bumps
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOlds wrote:
You are the instrument. Just play in tune.


True enough. I've only been at it for a couple of years, but I've learned that a trumpet is played as much with the ears as with the lips.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hear the notes in tune, play the notes in tune.

If you're playing with a tuner and the notes aren't in tune, that's because you're not hearing them in tune before you play them.

It's not a mechanical thing (probably) or a design thing or a horn thing. Sure, there are horns that have more severe tuning issues - like my Benge with it's 4th partials. It might be a slight deficiency with the horn, but the horn isn't playing the notes, it's me. So, I have to make it work - which I do (most of the time).

If you are sitting, playing your horn with a tuner and noticing that stuff isn't in tune, that's only one step. Then if you just try to get those notes in tune with the tuner and think that you have fixed the problem, you haven't. All that you've done is play a note in tune with the tuner, at this time. Will you play it in tune later, without the tuner? 20 measures later, will it still be in tune? If this is all you've done, probably not.

A tuner is there to give you a barometer. Use it to tune the pitches in your mind - with the horn. After a while, you will (hopefully) hear those pitches in tune and then they'll come out in tune. Then you can use the tuner to confirm things. You go along and a note will be uhh... not right. Is it sharp? Pull out the tuner. Check. Yup, it's sharp. Imagine the note lower - in tune. Maybe use the tuner to play the pitch. Close your eyes. Play it again. Does it sound in tune? Check it. If it's in tune, then keep playing it over and over until you really hear that note were it should be. If not, try again until you get there.

Also, the tuner gives you the illusion that it's the final word on pitch. It's not. If you're playing in a group and you're in tune as far as your tuner goes, but not matching the section and/or ensemble, you're wrong. You need to use your ears. That's why you use the tuner to calibrate your ears and your brain, not your horn. Sure, you might have a adjust a slide or how far you are moving a slide, but that's just to make playing that note in tune easier, it doesn't actually make the note come out in tune. That's on you.

Anyway, that's what I was taught, over years - and how I approach it.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tro.sy wrote:
I just wanted to add that i have 2 trumpets one is from Carol Brass and the other one is from Yamaha. I have the problem with trumpets in general not only wiht my trumpet. I have never played on a trumpet that is perfectly in tune. My main Trumpet is Carol Brass CTR-5060H-GSS-Bb-L but i have the same issue with my Yamaha trumpet.


It needs to be clearly stated that ALL trumpets cannot play ‘in tune’.

There are two reasons.

The first is physics. The trumpet in its current shape and sound can not produce all notes in tune. The vale slides, regardless of length, will end up not working well for one or more notes.

The second is that pitch is not fixed. It is, to a degree indeterminate until you add the tonal centre and context of the piece being played.

That means your 1st and 2nd valve E, on the first line, will be sharp to the resort your horn. It is MORE sharp in C major, as the third of the chord needs to drop some 32(?) cents. In A major, it’s much LESS sharp as the 5th needs to move up 12 (?) cents. These tempering make the chord ring and sound in tune.

But when you play with a piano, this is much less the case, as the piano is equally tempered. Play with an organ tuned to Wereckmeister, D major will sound wonderful, and you’ll have to move your 3rd and 5th, but some minor keys will sound awful to our ears.

Bottom line, you must use your ears, do ear training, and be aware of your pitch. So tune car3fully, and listen when playing, and you’ll do fine.

Cheers

Andy
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you worried about playing "in tune" when you play alone?

Because "in tune" when you are alone really isn't all that relevant. It's when you play in an ensemble that "in tune" matters and you use your ears and experience to play in tune with the others.

Tom
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dershem
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Gad, am I too simple? It seems to me just a matter of having a good horn and using your ear.


Yup. Listen actively. Know your horn to know where it's out of temper and play it enough with something to keep you in tune (a drone works well, so do the Aebersolds) that correcting it becomes automatic. Listen to the instruments that can't re-tune and hear the pitch center of the band. It part of being a musician, not just a horn player.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what one the greatest players to ever live said about tuning.

When a note sounds beautiful, it is in tune(and vice versa)
Approach on the lines of good sound and intonation will come there too. The ear will do all the work if you let it.
Bud Herseth

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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
This is what one the greatest players to ever live said about tuning.

When a note sounds beautiful, it is in tune(and vice versa)
Approach on the lines of good sound and intonation will come there too. The ear will do all the work if you let it.
Bud Herseth

R. Tomasek

Not quite the same sentiment, but my teacher was fond of saying "you can't tune a bad tone".
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been playing trumpet since 1963. I am a good player, but not a great player. I went to college on a trumpet scholarship and grad school at North Texas. I played in the lower level jazz bands there. (not great but a LOT of students didn't make any jazz band)

I have at times struggled with playing in tune. When I was in a slump, the harder I tried to listen and adjust, the worse things got. I was constantly listening and trying to adjust the pitch. It also cost me endurance doing this.

One day in the 1990s I was playing a church gig in a brass 5. We were cruising along pretty well and I noticed that we were very in tune. This led me to analyze what I was doing. I discovered that I was not listening to myself and analyzing my pitch, I was simply singing my part in my brain while I played. This process is called audiation.

For many years teachers had told me to sing through the instrument. I never could understand what they meant. But then suddenly I understood. I started teaching audiation to my band students. WOW! What a difference maker it was for them.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
I have been playing trumpet since 1963. I am a good player, but not a great player. I went to college on a trumpet scholarship and grad school at North Texas. I played in the lower level jazz bands there. (not great but a LOT of students didn't make any jazz band)

I have at times struggled with playing in tune. When I was in a slump, the harder I tried to listen and adjust, the worse things got. I was constantly listening and trying to adjust the pitch. It also cost me endurance doing this.

One day in the 1990s I was playing a church gig in a brass 5. We were cruising along pretty well and I noticed that we were very in tune. This led me to analyze what I was doing. I discovered that I was not listening to myself and analyzing my pitch, I was simply singing my part in my brain while I played. This process is called audiation.

For many years teachers had told me to sing through the instrument. I never could understand what they meant. But then suddenly I understood. I started teaching audiation to my band students. WOW! What a difference maker it was for them.

Great point! I was in some sections in college and we were all trying sooo hard to play in tune. Especially in orchestra on our C trumpets, since most of us weren't as practiced on C as on B flat. The harder we tried to listen to each other and adjust, the more out of tune we got. I remember trying all kinds of crazy alternate fingerings.
Eventually you just need to get to a place where you are locked into the music and trust yourself. Listen to the music around you more than yourself and sing your part in your head.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen for resonance, then check with a tuner. Most often, if you're sound resonates, it is in tune.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
Listen for resonance, then check with a tuner. Most often, if you're sound resonates, it is in tune.

I'm not sure this is true, but I do completely agree that a clear ringing tone, even if it's not perfectly in tune is often (not always) preferable to a poor tone even if it's technically better in tune.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
I'm not sure this is true, but I do completely agree that a clear ringing tone, even if it's not perfectly in tune is often (not always) preferable to a poor tone even if it's technically better in tune.

-------------------------------
A difficulty with that happens when playing with a group. The 'strive for tone' goal is basically concentrating on yourself, and 'blend with the group' having lower importance.

Certainly during individual practice time, a player should learn to produce a resonate ringing tone that is also 'in tune'.
When playing with a group, it's very important to understand and behave as a 'properly working part' to enhance the overall result.

It takes a combination of awareness, ability, and desire.

Jay
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:

I'm not sure this is true, but I do completely agree that a clear ringing tone, even if it's not perfectly in tune is often (not always) preferable to a poor tone even if it's technically better in tune.


Wouldn't you agree, though, that usually if someone has a clear, ringing tone, they also usually play in tune, and those with bad intonation are often accompanied with a less than stellar tone?
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
cheiden wrote:

I'm not sure this is true, but I do completely agree that a clear ringing tone, even if it's not perfectly in tune is often (not always) preferable to a poor tone even if it's technically better in tune.


Wouldn't you agree, though, that usually if someone has a clear, ringing tone, they also usually play in tune, and those with bad intonation are often accompanied with a less than stellar tone?
Yes, because if your tone is constricted and you don't have overtones in your sound, you have a hard time playing in tune with yourself throughout the range of the trumpet.
But I've heard students with really full sounds playing recitals and they're way off from the piano. Also have heard student lead players with big ringing sounds but they're out. It's possible to play with a clear ringing tune and be playing too flat or sharp from A=440. Some horns even seem to have 2 slots for where they can sound resonant. I played a students old King Silver Flair and I could make it sound good to my ears in 2 completely different places, pitch wise. I ended up being able to play it in tune with the tuning slide pretty far out.
So a resonant sound in tune with yourself is a great place to start but it's not the whole picture for playing in tune. You have to be able to match the environment as well as be in tune with yourself.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Jaw04 - did the player(s) with good tone, but who did not play in tune with the piano, play in tune with themselves?
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about those guys who play with a tuner clipped to the bell? They're always in tune, regardless of where the group is, and regardless of their tone quality... Truly on their own.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
@Jaw04 - did the player(s) with good tone, but who did not play in tune with the piano, play in tune with themselves?
I am not sure, I can't remember pieces/players/performances to that specific of a degree, but I would say in general for the most part yes.
There's also the issue of dynamics affecting pitch. Plenty of trumpet players play flatter when at forte and sharper at piano. Then there's range: flat upper register being super common. That's why audiating very precisely is important. Talented players with a good sense of pitch avoid the mechanical pitfalls of the equipment that less talented players fall into.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
There's also the issue of dynamics affecting pitch. Plenty of trumpet players play flatter when at forte and sharper at piano.


I practically never use a tuner, I think the ears should be developed, but one place I will use it occasionally, is long tones that make wide crescendos and decrescendos to check exactly what you refer to..
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
cheiden wrote:

I'm not sure this is true, but I do completely agree that a clear ringing tone, even if it's not perfectly in tune is often (not always) preferable to a poor tone even if it's technically better in tune.


Wouldn't you agree, though, that usually if someone has a clear, ringing tone, they also usually play in tune, and those with bad intonation are often accompanied with a less than stellar tone?

No doubt these things often happen together. But in the development sense I think that there's great utility on playing the resonant center of the instrument first and producing a clear ringing tone. Once you're lined up on where the horn wants to play then adjusting the tuning slide will likely bring things well enough into tune that the adjustments for ensemble matching should be relatively small.

I contrast this with a player who instead may obsess with satisfying the tuner and be constantly lipping notes to satisfy their eyes and not their ears. I've seen too many cases where this results in a unsatisfying sound that doesn't get better.

If you work on listening in the practice room to make the horn ring, then I think it's a shorter path to making the horn ring when playing with others.
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