Corners question

[jicetp]

Hello

I was wondering how to prevent my corners from stretching back ?
It seem to me that rolling in works ( I mean I can get sounds with RI ) when corners are back and I tried the 'unlocking exercise' Jeff prescribes in the book (puffing cheeks), but as soon as I release my finger position,the RI 'rolls out' thus preventing the air hiss !
Furthermore, I sometimes feel my lips 'thinning' when doing RI, and I guess it's really related with my range limitation,since that on my top range, I almost feel my teeth hugging the mouthpiece !
BUT, I feel with the RO exercises some cushion happening ( feels great and secure ! ).
Any suggestions,remarks,advices...?
Thank you
Jice

[HJ]

Jice,

First of all: RO is IMO the way to unlocked corners. So, do these a lot so you get the feel.
If you feel your lips thinning out on RI I think that is caused by lack of efficiency and strength at this point of your development.

There is a lot ado about RI and locked corners on the Callet forum, and I've seen with my own students that RI sometimes works better with stretched back or locked corners. Most of my students play more forward BTW, including myself, so not stretched back at all. I don't think it is really important. RI IMO is THE exaggerated motion exercise. It wakes up the muscles that you need to counteract the roll-out or pucker. If you have a nice padded embouchure it enables the lips to slightly roll-in . RI teaches you what muscles do this. This way your embouchure will seek a balance between roll-out and in.
On the other hand, if you are able to bring the corners back in ( forward position) a bit while doiing RI, I think that is better.

Bert

[oj]

Jice,

We have discussed this earlier in this forum ( Dec. 2003).

See here:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15023

Ole

[Larrios]

This is perhaps a little bit off topic, but it's an observation I made this afternoon. I introduced two kids to RO and RI, just to see what would happen. For the record: they had five trial lessons before the summer break and this was their first lesson since then. One of them, a 9 y/o girl, played a nice high C and D on her first RI attempt. She couldn't get a double pedal. She locked her corners. The other one, a 10 y/o boy, got a raspy double pedal sound (pitch of course not yet an issue, just the sound), but couldn't make a sound with RI. I wonder if this guy even has corner muscles, from the look of it. They surely weren't locked in any way. I think this illustrates Bert's view of the RO being the most important unlocking exersise.

Ko

[mcamilleri]

What you describe is quite normal, so first of all don't worry. In time, BE will work it's magic. If you really want to be patient, ignore all our posts and go read the book again and practice some more

RO teaches you how to bring the corners laterally inwards (towards the center of the lips - 'anti-smile'). Learning how to integrate this movement with the RI is the challenge, and is what most of the RI and RO exercises are working towards. If you had a stretch/smile habit then this will be a reflex action that may take some time to finally defeat.

Since you already have a sound on RI, the lip unlocking exercise is likely of little value to you now. It is really intended to help you get a sound in the RI position by reducing excessive muscular effort (if that was the problem). Generally, people put FAR too much tension into the RI initially, often to the point of stopping the air completely.

Regarding locking or stretching back the corners, I have my own theories on this. Part of the reason for stretching the corners or smiling is to put tension into the cheeks so that they don't puff out. If you deliberately allow your cheeks to puff (and maybe the lips also), you no longer have to use the tension for this purpose. You can then learn how to RI without that muscular tension and, in time, learn how to not puff the cheeks again. You also free the tongue to move anywhere it wants too (e.g. no tongue arch needed), and will likely need less air pressure for the same result.

IMO the tongue should be used to stop the cheeks puffing (tongue forward position, pressed against the bottom of the upper teeth), if you want to stop the puff. This is what I do - not sure what others do. Unfortunately, the old advice from teachers of 'don't puff your cheeks' is more likely to cause excessive facial tension than the correct use of the tongue, so the downward spiral begins.

So what do I suggest? Experiment with cheek puffing and air pockets for a while. ALLOW your entire embouchure to be blown forward towards the mouthpiece, even so far that the lips no longer touch the teeth. Learn to RI in this extreme position. Once you can do that you will have explored a lot of range of motion territory, and will likely unlock all kinds of new movement patterns for you to utilise.

A well balanced RI is actually quite easy, in terms of the amount of muscular effort, with the muscles nicely balancing the applied air pressure. It must be easy, if a 5 free lesson 9 yr old girl can play a high D in that position. We adults just have too many hangups and pre-conceived ideas.

Michael
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Besson Loyalist

[jicetp]

Thanks for your help !
I especially like the RO/RI 'trick' ( thanks Ole ) but I can't seem to manage to get a sound/squeak/whatever from this 'new' position for me !
I guess I have to limit my RI exercises to RI #1 ( maybe #2) to get used to it.
Thanks Macamilleri for reminding me to be patient and that it WILL come !
Great to be able to discuss things with such nice people ( hope someday I will pass my 'knowledge' to others )
Jice

[steve0930]

Hello all
I've been playing trumpet for 1314 days and for the first time ever played an effortless c above the staff. I should call it my Battle of Bannockburn (1314) moment. This TH post really worked for me. Ko's pupils: The two young children.. the girl can do the RI the boy the RO. As Bert said.. if a child can do it on day 1 its not to difficult. In my head something then clicked. For me today, (tomoro it can be something else!) playing the trumpet on a BE is like flying a kite. The RO is the vertical strut.. the RI the horisontal strut.. but you need both (in balance) to get the required tension. So I picked up the trumpet and focused on my RO padded lips feel and then just thought about performing the opposite action - the RI - just to bring in some kite tension. and bang.. out popped the C as easy as you like... my kite was well and truly flying on minimal wind!
3 days ago i felt that my immediate target was to make an E in the staff feel as easy as a C in the staff. Today I'm there. (fingers crossed for tomorrow) Thanks to the Autumn 04 posts of Ko, Bert, Michael, Ole and Jeff.. making an impact 16 years down the line!
When I was a boy "Stunt kites" were the thing.. if I remember it was called a "Peter Powell Stunt Kite" you could do loops with them.. you just had to count how many loops you had done in each direction... today i launched the kite.. the future feels exciting..
steve -in Helsinki