Yamaha Neo

[ladsar]

Hi!

I bought a Yamah Neo cornet about a year ago for brass band playing. I'm very pleased with the sound I get using Alliance RM3 and RM3A mouthpieces. However, there is one thing that I'm a bit concerned about. It seems like it always get a lot of condensation building up in the third valve slide. I have read some comments about this regarding the Neo cornet. I know this is normal and condensation always builds up in the third valve slide. But I just can't get all the condensation out of the instrument, and it is actually quite annoying when playing. Just thought I ask if someone else has the same experience with the Neo Cornet?

And since I just startet a new topic I'm also wondering if someone that has played both Neo and rather new Sovereign/Prestige cornets could tell if they have noticed any difference between the cornets in this matter?

[Louise Finch]

Hi ladsar

I have a Xeno rather than Neo, but my understanding is that they are very similar. Personally I get so little water in the third slide that I never even use the 3rd water key. Before swabbing out my leadpipe and tuning slide after playing, I simply do what I used to do with the Bach 184ML I used previously, which does not have a third water key, and that is to let the water out of the removed 2nd slide.

I used to have an issue with water building up in the 2nd slide of my Bach 184ML, until I realised that possibly owing to the position of the 1st slide, I was holding it with the valve block tilted a bit to the right, encouraging water to build up in the 2nd slide.

I find that I naturally hold my Xeno cornet with the valves straighter, and I do not have this issue.

I'm not sure whether you have had this issue with other short cornets, but it may simply be that owing to your head and jaw position that your instruments point fairly downwards and that mouthpiece being nearer to the valve block on a short model cornet compared to a trumpet, exaggerates this downwards tilt, resulting in water building up in the third slide.

If it is a known feature of the Neo (I've never heard this), maybe the two combine to make it a particular issue for you, or maybe it is simply a feature of the Neo, but if so my Xeno doesn't have it. I'm sorry, I can't be of much help.

I've owned three Sovereigns, one 927 with the older style external valve springs and microbor valves, one British-made 928 with the longer mouthpiece receiver engraved with the Besson logo, and enclosed valves, and one Buffet-Crampon made one. None of them had an issue with excess water in the third slide. I've also previously owned a Yamaha Maestro, and still own the above mentioned Bach 184ML and a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial. I've not noticed this issue with any of these cornets.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[etc-etc]

There might be some imperfection in the bore that stops water from being emptied through the waterkey. Usually, this would be a leftover burr around the waterkey hole, or some dirt / grease blocking the exit of water in the same area.

You can check this by carefully undoing the screw between the third slide and the trigger arm, and taking off the slide. As the trigger arm is spring-loaded, there will be a high chance to lose the screw in process of disassembly, or when you put it back together. Possible complications include damaging the screwdriver head when the screwdriver bit slips, marring of the finish with the slipping screwdriver, dropping the slide and/or the horn, overtightening the screw and more.

If you are successful in removing the slide, inspect it and try to clean with a brush. Grease and dirt are easy to remove, but a burr removal is best done by a professional.

[ladsar]

Thanks for answer

Louise:

I don't know if it's a known issue. But I've read 3-4 comments about it on different pages. I've been looking up every comment on the Neo cornet that I could find on the web, I can't remember exactly where I found the comments I'm afraid. I haven't had any problems with cornets I've used before. There has always been water/condensation building up in the same place, but not so much and it was rather easy to get it out and play on without problems. Thanks for info regarding the Bessons. During the summer I hope I will be able to try both Sovereign and Prestige. If I'm not able to do something about the issue with water/condensation I might go back to a Besson cornet. I used to play a 928 before, fantastic instrument if you could find a good one. I've heard the quality and consistency has improved a lot, so I guess that's not a problem now.

etc-etc:

I didn't know about this. I will take the Neo to my local instrument dealer who sold me the cornet. I will let them know what you described. As I said I am very pleased with this cornet in every way except for this water/condensation issue.

[Louise Finch]

Hi ladsar

You are very welcome. Sorry, I couldn't be more helpful. I think that etc-etc may very well be right regarding why you are having a difficulty draining the water. I was concentrating more on why you have so much water in that slide rather than issues with draining it. Regarding draining it, as etc-etc says in addition to there being a burr, there may be muck in the water key chimney. I think that this is more likely on the main tuning slide water key of the Neo rather than the third, owing to the main water key having a taller chimney (I am presuming that the Neo it is like the Xeno in this regard).

I've just remembered that I once had an issue with water in the main tuning slide of my Xeno. I always swab out the main tuning slide and leadpipe after each playing, but the swab (I use an H W Brass Saver swab, drying it on a towel between each swabbing) probably doesn't reach into the water key chimney and once I had a gurgling cornet and the water was coming out of the main tuning slide water key very slowly owing to it being blocked with a plug of muck, which came out when I ran water through and out of the main water key.

I think that it may be worth having a look in the water key chimney to check for a plug of muck.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[etc-etc]

I agree with Lou about the muck in the water key chimney. That said, the water key chimney on the third valve slide of the Yamaha Neo cornet is not as long as that on its leadpipe crook. If not draining completely from the leadpipe crook, moisture can blow over to the third slide.

[Andy Cooper]

OK - I've been on TH for about 20 years so I figure I'm entitled to at least one dumb comment:

So do Yamaha cornet players with a 3rd valve slide ring instead of a trigger have the same water problems in their 3rd slide?

My reasoning is this - the trigger contacts the slide in two places serving as a heat sink cooling the air thus causing the water in the air to condense. To add to the problem, the left hand does not contact the third slide tubing very much.

With a ring, the left hand is in full contact with the slide keeping it warm, so less condensation.

How to test this: tie a single use hand warmer (Hot Hands) around the 3rd valve tubing in a way that does not interfere with the trigger. (Just to be safe, only try this with a silver plated horn.)

Another possibility - the "Besson" tubing crook as the leadpipe goes into the 1st valve slide may be "cooling" down the air sooner than older Yamaha cornets that lack that crook. Again you could test that the same way with a hand warmer on the crook.

Excuse me while I call my broker to go bullish on Hot Hand stock.

[etc-etc]

You are right about the added mass for trigger. However, with a greater thermal mass it takes longer for the third slide to warm up, as well as to cool down.

Most of water accumulation is due to incomplete drainage which varies by individual horn. Usually, burrs that impede the drainage occur immediately around the waterkey hole. It makes sense to check for burr presence if the drainage problem is encountered.

To compare fairly, one would need to have two 8335 Neo cornets in identical finish and material, one with triggers and one in the SRH (slide-ring-hook) style, with any burrs and dirt removed. Comparing horns with different finish, layout of crooks etc. is going to mix in several effects at once.