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My first experience with Sam Ash.


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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:07 pm    Post subject: My first experience with Sam Ash. Reply with quote

I went to Sam Ash yesterday to look at some mouthpieces and pick up a new one. My only mp is a Bach 7C. I figured it's not a bad idea to try something else even though I've been playing for less than 2 weeks. The guy I bought my trumpet from told me to try several different mp's and just stick with the one that I like. However, some people suggest that it's better to stick with the 7C or a deeper cup while learning and to switch later if necessary.

The girl in the brass section is very nice. She listens to me play and asks what I'm trying to accomplish with a new mouthpiece.

I tell her that I'm only getting up to a G (I can squeeze out a G# and A but it's not pretty) at this point and would like to hit a high C (Not a double C. The one below it). I tell her I'm playing with a 7C right now.

I asked her if she plays the trumpet and she says that she is good enough to "Gig" with a trumpet but her instrument is a Bassoon.

She shows me a 5C and a 3C and tells me that these mouthpieces have a shallower cup than the 7C.

I said, "Doesn't the letter refer to the depth of the cup?"

She says, "No. The letter refers to the rim and the number refers to the size of the bore."

I was like, are you sure? I think I read online that the letter is the cup depth and the number is the rim.

She's adamant that the letter is the rim and the number is the bore. I can tell she's mildly irritated about me questioning what she's saying.

At this point I'm thinking that it's possible I'm wrong and that the stuff I read online was incorrect or I just wasn't being a very good reader that day. After all, I'm the noob in this situation and she the expert in the brass section at a music store who plays the trumpet, bassoon and probably a few other instruments in the orchestra. Between the two of us, she's the one who's probably correct.

So, I take her word for it.

She says I can go with the 5C or 3C to get a bit more range or just buy the Yamaha TR-Shew-Jazz which gives most players the range they're looking for. The price wasn't much higher.

I bought the Shew.

When I got home and tried it. There was basically no difference in range from that of my 7C. The tone was a bit cleaner though. It cleaned up my high F and G.

I went to the internet to read about Bach mouthpieces all over again only to find out that I was correct all along and that she had no idea what she was talking about.

So I printed out the documentation about mouthpieces from the Vincent Bach corporation and headed down to Sam Ash to return this $53 mouth piece that isn't much different from a Bach 5C or 3C. I read at a few places online that the Shew Jazz is basically a 5C or 3C that plays a bit nicer.

Well, she wasn't very happy that I was returning the mouthpiece, nor was she very happy when I pointed out the section of the document that explains if a player is looking for more range, they should try something with a shallower cup, such as a 3D, 3E or 3F.

I could care less how she felt about it though. I'm the one who had to drive 15 miles to get there only to be fitted to a mp that does basically nothing for me. She's probably been fitting people with the wrong mouthpieces for years.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately that's the case with many businesses. You might find a sales person who really knows about the products, but you can't depend on it.
With info on the internet so easily available, we can at least learn about the terminology and the manufactures claims and descriptions. Then when talking with people, there's a better chance of learning whether they know the basics - and decide whether that's the 'tip of their iceberg' or their 'whole ice cube'.

In your particular situation, if a Bach 7C feels OK and seems to fit your lips, then it is likely to work well and won't inhibit your progress.
A WARNING, playing higher notes is a learned skill and there is a technique that doesn't involve using arm muscles to jam the rim against your upper lip. The lip pressure on the rim needs to be controlled and distributed between the upper and lower lips.

Jay
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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

A WARNING, playing higher notes is a learned skill and there is a technique that doesn't involve using arm muscles to jam the rim against your upper lip. The lip pressure on the rim needs to be controlled and distributed between the upper and lower lips.
Jay


True. Getting up into the higher register is going to take time and commitment. Would be nice if I could find a mouthpiece that would at least get me to C though. I don't think that's asking for too much.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:


True. Getting up into the higher register is going to take time and commitment. Would be nice if I could find a mouthpiece that would at least get me to C though. I don't think that's asking for too much.


The mouthpiece is not going to do it. It takes patience to learn how to relax enough to hit the higher notes and practice to consolidate them as good playable musical notes. If you concentrate on playing really well and relaxed in the lower register and getting a great sound, inching your way up and keeping that feeling, it will take you a long way. A teacher can help you avoid a lot of mistakes you might make trying to work it out on your own.
Here is the Bach mouthpiece manual. It will give you what Bach says are the dimensions of its mouthpieces, if you think a change will help you.
A change in mouthpiece may give you a mouthpiece that is more congenial to you, and that may allow you to work into higher notes than you play now, but that is definitely not guaranteed.

https://www.bachbrass.com/application/files/4614/8521/7763/AV2BA901_Original_1889_web.pdf
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: My first experience with Sam Ash. Reply with quote

Theoretically, a music retail employee should know some basics about the stuff they are shilling. In big chain retailers... well...

I've had discussions with employees like that - usually guitar players.

Frankly, if you're going to a Best Buy level of store, you're going to get Best Buy level service and product knowledge. Know your stuff.

Trumpetown wrote:
She shows me a 5C and a 3C and tells me that these mouthpieces have a shallower cup than the 7C.

I said, "Doesn't the letter refer to the depth of the cup?"

She says, "No. The letter refers to the rim and the number refers to the size of the bore."


Actually, she's right about the 5C and the 3C having shallower cups than the 7C, and probably being a bit friendlier - range wise, maybe. The rest of it, not so much.

Also, the mouthpiece isn't a big factor in a player's range.

Does wearing running shoes make you a faster runner? No. Are they better than wearing wingtips for running? Sure. Does having bigger shoes make you go faster? Uh, no. Does having shoes that fit help with your movement? Absolutely.

This is pretty much the same with trumpet. Most range issues are about the player and approach and technique and practice. It helps to have a mouthpiece that fits the player and works well, but having those things isn't really going to give you any magic or even additional range.

If you can't get a high C on a 7C, that says way more about you as a player and what you're doing than getting the right mouthpiece. Get somebody to help you with your playing and technique. A new mouthpiece won't make a significant difference. A 3C size might work better for you overall than a 7C - maybe, it's very individual - but it's not magically going to make you better.

The Shew is a nice mouthpiece - a flavor of a 3C, in my opinion. I have one - it seems nice.

I'm going to quote a previous post I did on Bach mouthpieces, because there are some misconceptions out there about them and sizes. That should help inform you a bit regarding these. Still, it's not the mouthpiece, it's the player. Good luck.

Crazy Finn wrote:
There are numerous trumpet mouthpiece size systems. They vary in description and precision and consistency. Basically, they try to give a rough estimate of how wide and how deep it is.

The most common system is the Bach sizing system. Bach started making trumpet mouthpieces in the 1920's in NY, eventually moving on to also making trumpets and other brasses, moving his company to Mt. Vernon, and then before he retired, sold it to Conn-Selmer which moved it to Elkhart. It's not the most precise or descriptive system, but it is the most common - because they're the most well-known trumpet mouthpiece maker - so many copy these sizes in some fashion.

The first number depicts the diameter, with the smaller number - like 1 - being the widest and a large number like 17 being narrow. The number doesn't correspond to any particular unit of measurement, it's just a relative description. The capital letter that follows the number indicates the depth of the cup with the deepest being no letter - followed by A, C being medium, and E and F being the shallowest.

Things like the rim shape, throat, and backbore are not indicated in the plain Bach numbering system. That's not a knock, after all, how many people care about this level of detail?

One thing that isn't clear just from reading catalogs, is the Bach mouthpieces are not consistent across it's system. For example, the cup in a 3C is not the same as the cup on a 5C. The 5C is not a slightly less wide version of a 3C, it's rim is different and the cup is deeper. In reality, they're completely different mouthpieces. Also, while a 3, 3B, 3C, and 3E are all "3" series mouthpieces, they have differences in rim shape and cup shape (besides depth). Basically, Bach mouthpieces are not a system, they're individual models that are stamped and labelled as a system. Again, it's not a knock on these mouthpieces, most work pretty well and are pretty well designed.

Bach cornet mouthpieces are essentially Bach trumpet mouthpieces with a cornet shank. Bach doesn't make traditional brass band cornet mouthpieces, really - you can get a "3" or "3A", basically a deep trumpet piece in cornet shank, but it's not the same as a Yamaha David King or a Wick.

Speaking of Wick, they basically sort of use the Bach system. Here is Wick's comparison chart from their website.

https://www.deniswick.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Denis-Wick-Products-Mouthpiece-Mute-Comparison-Chart.pdf

One thing of note: Wick and Bach have specifications for things like diameter on their websites. It's best not to compare the diameter specifications, as there is a lot of discrepancies that come into that (as in were companies measure diameters from varies, so comparing numbers is perilous). However, if a company compares their (whatever) to a Bach 3C (for example), that's a decently safe bet.

Yamaha and Schilke use a different numbering system than Bach, essentially the opposite. Smaller numbers now mean smaller diameters, and lower letters mean shallower depths. They also include rim shape as designated by a number and sometimes a backbore designated by a lower case letter. For example the 14A4a, is a 14 diameter (similar to a Bach 3 or so), A - very shallow, 4 - flattish rim, and the "a" backbore.

Mark Curry is a maker that uses Bach sizes but has established much more of a system for his mouthpieces. GR Mouthpieces uses part of the diameter measurement in their size. There are a lot of stuff out there, but generally these individual systems have published some reference point back to Bach and Schilke.

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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mouthpiece size has very little to do with hitting a particular note. Size and shape is more connected to general ease of playing and getting the sound you want.

Developed players can hit any note on any mouthpiece.

When you say "high C," are you talking about 2 ledger lines above the staff? If so, you may need to rethink your approach to the instrument. After playing only two weeks, you shouldn't be worried about high C. Other elements are typically more important for your overall development at this point.

The higher notes will either develop naturally over time, or you may need to address them with specific exercises later. But two weeks in is way too early.

Jeff
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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:

The mouthpiece is not going to do it. It takes patience to learn how to relax enough to hit the higher notes and practice to consolidate them as good playable musical notes. If you concentrate on playing really well and relaxed in the lower register and getting a great sound, inching your way up and keeping that feeling, it will take you a long way. A teacher can help you avoid a lot of mistakes you might make trying to work it out on your own.
Here is the Bach mouthpiece manual. It will give you what Bach says are the dimensions of its mouthpieces, if you think a change will help you.
A change in mouthpiece may give you a mouthpiece that is more congenial to you, and that may allow you to work into higher notes than you play now, but that is definitely not guaranteed.


I have the Bach manual. That's what I gave to the girl at Sam Ash so she could realize what she was telling me is wrong.

I do still think though that 3 more notes is not too much to ask. I can play from middle C to G. A, B and C isn't that far away.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
When you say "high C," are you talking about 2 ledger lines above the staff?

That's the first thing that came to my mind. It makes a difference in interpreting some of the posts. And, unless I missed it, you haven't answered the question.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
...
I do still think though that 3 more notes is not too much to ask. I can play from middle C to G. A, B and C isn't that far away.

-----------------
There's good info about developing the 'technique' for playing those notes in the
Fundamentals forum - https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
and in the
High Range Development forum - https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

Reaching a 'playable plateau' at the G above the staff happens for many people. And it usually is due to not using the proper technique.
And NO you likely don't need a major 'embouchure change', just some fine-tuning that will help your lips vibrate for higher notes.

Jay
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:


I do still think though that 3 more notes is not too much to ask. I can play from middle C to G. A, B and C isn't that far away.


Absolutely not, with time and practice. Unless the mouthpiece you are using now is not a good match for you, the mouthpiece will not make much difference. If the mouthpiece you have now is wrong for you, a new one might help. However, it sounds like the mouthpiece is fine. In that case it is just a matter of practice and dialing back on body tension, building the embouchure, clear audiation and learning how those higher notes work, etc. There are lots of range exercises. However, if you really play that C to G range you have, work it and get strength in it and good sound, the higher notes should come. Caruso's 6 magic notes is a good place to start for building strength. (You can find the exercise here among many other places, https://www.markzauss.net/caruso6notes.html) Again, a teacher could save a lot of trouble.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
The mouthpiece size has very little to do with hitting a particular note. Size and shape is more connected to general ease of playing and getting the sound you want.

Developed players can hit any note on any mouthpiece.

When you say "high C," are you talking about 2 ledger lines above the staff? If so, you may need to rethink your approach to the instrument. After playing only two weeks, you shouldn't be worried about high C. Other elements are typically more important for your overall development at this point.

The higher notes will either develop naturally over time, or you may need to address them with specific exercises later. But two weeks in is way too early.

Jeff

I missed the part where he'd been playing 2 weeks. Good grief.
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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
The mouthpiece size has very little to do with hitting a particular note. Size and shape is more connected to general ease of playing and getting the sound you want.

Developed players can hit any note on any mouthpiece.

When you say "high C," are you talking about 2 ledger lines above the staff? If so, you may need to rethink your approach to the instrument. After playing only two weeks, you shouldn't be worried about high C. Other elements are typically more important for your overall development at this point.

The higher notes will either develop naturally over time, or you may need to address them with specific exercises later. But two weeks in is way too early.

Jeff


I start at the C below the staff (Middle C on the piano) and play up one octave to the next C. Above that, I can get to F pretty good. The G above that is a squeeze, but it's there.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
The mouthpiece size has very little to do with hitting a particular note. Size and shape is more connected to general ease of playing and getting the sound you want.

Developed players can hit any note on any mouthpiece.

When you say "high C," are you talking about 2 ledger lines above the staff? If so, you may need to rethink your approach to the instrument. After playing only two weeks, you shouldn't be worried about high C. Other elements are typically more important for your overall development at this point.

The higher notes will either develop naturally over time, or you may need to address them with specific exercises later. But two weeks in is way too early.

Jeff


I start at the C below the staff (Middle C on the piano) and play up one octave to the next C. Above that, I can get to F pretty good. The G above that is a squeeze, but it's there.

Well, you're doing fine after 2 weeks. Stop worry about range and let it develop naturally.

This is like picking up football/soccer and moaning after 2 weeks that you're not quite as good as Messi. Or trying out baseball and complaining that you can't hit like Mike Trout, yet. Gawd.

(ok. high c isn't at that level, but seriously...)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
The mouthpiece size has very little to do with hitting a particular note. Size and shape is more connected to general ease of playing and getting the sound you want.

Developed players can hit any note on any mouthpiece.

When you say "high C," are you talking about 2 ledger lines above the staff? If so, you may need to rethink your approach to the instrument. After playing only two weeks, you shouldn't be worried about high C. Other elements are typically more important for your overall development at this point.

The higher notes will either develop naturally over time, or you may need to address them with specific exercises later. But two weeks in is way too early.

Jeff


I start at the C below the staff (Middle C on the piano) and play up one octave to the next C. Above that, I can get to F pretty good. The G above that is a squeeze, but it's there.


The common issue for most beginners, is that you struggle to play high, and that struggle becomes ingrained in your mind. Forcing the high notes too early just makes it worse.

With correct habits, you might be ready for high C in a year or so. Even that is pretty quick, and it assumes that you are on a path that allows these habits to form.

If you are in Las Vegas, and really are serious about making progress, I suggest taking a lesson with Dave Perrico. It will change everything.

https://www.davidperricomusic.com/contact.html

Jeff
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are a few erroneous facts in this thread, but maybe it's me.
I'm pretty sure that the numbers on Bach mouthpieces denote cup depth and move from larger for smaller numbers to smaller (or shallower) for higher numbers.
a 3c is a deeper çup than a 7c and a 10 1/2c is a shallower cup than a 7c....unless I've been mistaken for the past 50 years.

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Trumpetown
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khedger wrote:
I think there are a few erroneous facts in this thread, but maybe it's me.
I'm pretty sure that the numbers on Bach mouthpieces denote cup depth and move from larger for smaller numbers to smaller (or shallower) for higher numbers.
a 3c is a deeper çup than a 7c and a 10 1/2c is a shallower cup than a 7c....unless I've been mistaken for the past 50 years.

keith


The letter is the cup depth. In the Bach manual posted earlier in this thread, it says that if a player is looking to play into a higher register, he should try a shallower cup such as a 3D, 3E or 3F.

Here's what it actually says:
Quote:

A player using a medium-large bore
Bb or C trumpet or a Bb cornet should
generally use a mouthpiece no shallower
than the Bach C cup and preferably,
slightly deeper cups such as a B or A. One
exception is for musicians who continually
play in the extreme high register and desire
a brighter sound. In this case, a more
shallow mouthpiece such as a 3D, 3E, 3F
or 5SV may be preferable.


The number is the diameter of the cup. The smaller the number, the wider the diameter.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Bach Catalog:

"Cup depths are notated with letters. “A”cups are the deepest; standard cups have no letter designation; progressively shal-lower cups are marked B through F."
And:
"Bach trumpet, cornet and fluegelhorn mouthpieces have been numbered in an orderly progression from the largest to the smallest diameters and from the deep-est to the most shallow cup, each with a choice of rim designs.Rim shape is described for each individual model throughout the catalog.Model numbers progress numerically from model #1 with the largest cup diameter, to model #20C with the smallest cup diameter"

So according to Bach, the letters designate the depth of the cup and the numbers the size of the rim.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The perfect embouchure which is rare doesn't need excessive arm pressure to play the complete range of the instrument. I hate to say it but we know that the O/P doesn't have the perfect or correct embouchure because his range is so limited. The correct or perfect embouchure is like a well assembled reed instrument. Like the the clarinet. When the instrument is put together with the reed properly in place, the ligature correctly tightened and mouthpiece inserted as it should it will always allow the instrumentalist to play a three octave + range. Well? I'd say that this is usually able to happen soon after he begins studying the instrument.

However this is only rarely the case with our beginning trumpet students. I know that this is so because over the years I have noticed a goodly number of young clarinetists able to blow a satisfactory G/High C soon after beginning their studies. The same however is only rarely true on the trumpet. And this is due to the great majority of us not having the intricacies of the trumpet ever explained to us. You may doubt my words but if you had the necessary understanding to build your embouchure correctly from the very start? You would probably have been able to blow a G/High C within your first couple weeks after beginning. You probably wouldn't have developed a truly big sound of course. That and certainly your accuracy would suffer due to the unfamiliar feeling you had with his embouchure and breath support in general. Basically when building an embouchure capable of playing the complete range on the horn it certainly takes a few years to gain familiarity inside the chops. That and the confidence to make a good show of it. The beginner essentially needs a couple years to just to complete the assembly of his trumpet. Regardless of how well he is trained his sub-conscious mind, the most powerful part of the brain takes a couple years to "complete the internal mechanics".

Unlike the clarinet our trumpet is not a complete unit by itself. Not at first!. Or perhaps we should describe a reed instrument as being nearly complete. Though easier to build range on it the reed embouchure does require at least some development. A 100% complete instrument is a piano or drum. There is not one note that even our rawest beginner can't find and strike on the piano. Or percussion.

By extension this pretty much means that close to all of us have some kind of dysfunctional embouchure. As such? Why not pick a mouthpiece better able to disguise those deficiencies? Also so much can be done to build up a bigger tone even on the shallowest of mouthpieces. Before I started over, designing my chops to work correctly I gained fantastic help from custom mouthpiece designs.

Like why bother with an overly sharp, extra deep Bach mouthpiece? The kind likely to cut a circular ring impression on the lips? Not when the throat and back-bore combination can easily be drilled out to make the sound prettier. That and greatly reduce the workload of all those concerned.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khedger wrote:
I think there are a few erroneous facts in this thread, but maybe it's me.
I'm pretty sure that the numbers on Bach mouthpieces denote cup depth and move from larger for smaller numbers to smaller (or shallower) for higher numbers.
a 3c is a deeper çup than a 7c and a 10 1/2c is a shallower cup than a 7c....unless I've been mistaken for the past 50 years.

keith

As other posters mention, the numbers designate diameter or width. The letters designate cup depth.

Unfortunately, there is no standard "C" cup, within the Bach line as each C cup is of different depth. The C in the 3C is shallower than either the 5C or the 7C. I don't know how the 10 1/2C measures up.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
... As other posters mention, the numbers designate diameter or width. The letters designate cup depth.

Unfortunately, there is no standard "C" cup, within the Bach line as each C cup is of different depth. The C in the 3C is shallower than either the 5C or the 7C. I don't know how the 10 1/2C measures up.

-----------------------
The cup depth of Bach mouthpieces is NOT an absolute measurement.
The letter indicates the 'relative depth' to the rim ID. And it probably is related to the internal volume of the cup.
The A cup is likely the deepest cup size and shape that Bach has determined to 'work'. The smaller cup sizes (unmarked, B, C, D, E, F) are just relative steps that seem to make a noticeable difference.

Also the rim sizes (the number) don't move in precise increments, they just indicates the relative order of the rim size.

Don't try to apply a mathematical formula to the Bach sizing, it's a relative guide.

Jay
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