BE928 Sovereign Cornet- How to affix Spring in to position

[EastWest]

Dear All,

Is there anyone, that could help me / assist me by providing information on the following: How to affix in to place the Spring for the 1st Valve Slide Trigger, my newly acquired second-hand French Cornet Besson Sovereign BE-928 S; for which, I would be most grateful:

the Spring for the first valve slide trigger requires affixing back in to position; which, came out as I was cleaning this newly acquired Cornet, and now have received a new Spring; but, having searched on the web, I cannot find any link which provides sufficient information / detail on how to affix the Spring back in to position. You know, either a well detailed info on the required equipment, procedure would be useful, as I don't want to give this to anyone whom I do not know; besides, I would rather learn how to maintain the Cornet, myself; as this, cleaning process will encompass this occurrence each time; how else, would we reach the insides of the tubing, e.g. 1st Valve Slide.

Oh dear! i am at a loss.

I look forward to hearing from you, and learning more at your earliest convenience.

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj,
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.] [/b]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[Bob Stevenson]

The lever is pivoted in a small pivot frame attached to the first valve jacket......it is held in place by a small headed screw. First, obtain a screwdriver that is the right size for the screw...this is important as you don't want a slip which damages the silverplate.

Take out the screw and carefully set aside, then remove the lever.......if you look carefully at the lever you will see that the small tube where the screw passes through is the mounting for the spring. Fit the spring around this tube so that the closed end of the spring bears against the lever and the two open ends are facing away from lever. Now, hook the two spring ends onto the top of the pivot frame and gently push the lever into place....slip the screw thru the screw holes and thus thru the tube of the lever...tighten screw securely into place, but don't over tighten.

[EastWest]

Thank you for your reply, Bob; which, I am still deciphering. Having made an attempt to break the down the sequence of events in to steps, I notice that, I follow the instruction in the first para, which is, of course, straightforward.

Then followed by this, the second para - ‘Take out the screw and carefully set aside, then remove the lever.......’ which, I totally understand.
‘if you look carefully at the lever you will see that the small tube where the screw passes through is the mounting for the spring’ I have taken out the screw and placed it aside. Small tube, in which the screw passes through- yes I notice it.

‘Fit the spring around this tube so that the closed end of the spring bears against the lever and the two open ends are facing away from lever.’ This part, is the start of the bit that seems to me, to be a rather curious part which I am not quite clear; which, I am still trying to decipher. Which part of the spring is it that, needs to be positioned in place, and, how? Does the spring need to be depressed in to position, in order for the spring to be actively pushing the lever in place? thus, allowing for the Trigger to be pushed, which, subsequently, opens the slide? Erm…not sure, if I have asked the question correctly; erm…curiously baffled. Sorry, of course, I would benefit from .jpg’s of each step of this procedure; but, am also, additionally curious, how I co-ordinate our discussion through this interesting procedure.

To enable a clearer view of this procedure, may I inquire as to whether or not, per chance, you would have .jpg’s photo’s which reference each step of the procedure, which you could attach in to this thread? Or, if not, then, of course, we may continue to proceed, as I am keen to accomplish this task.
However, I cannot see how, I would depress the spring back in to position without a suitable equipment, which, that too, I wonder, as to whether or not, I would I need to order? but, not sure what equipment this would be; a set of pliers with soft rubber nylon tips? A bit baffled on this aspect. You know, how does the ‘Spring’ get depressed in to position, so that, it is active the moment it is in Situ? I don’t want the spring to pierce in to the fingers, and cause any kind of injury, neither, which, would adversely impact on my ability to press down the valves, you know when playing.
You wouldn’t have .jpg’s to hand which you could attach, which illustrates the steps in this procedure. It seems to me that, I would require some kind of equipment / device to safely depress the spring in to position, such as set of tweezers / pliers; would I not? If so, what might this device / equipment be? Or, is it the case, that, no such device is required? In which case, I am somewhat baffled.

Descriptions greatly appreciated.

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[Bob Stevenson]

Consider, for a moment, just the spring......the spring is made from one single piece of wire.....on either side of the spring there is, effectively, a little coil...these 'coils' go around the 'tube' of the lever...the two ends of the spring, like little hooks, go against the pivot frame on the instrument.

..........When yo uhave installed the spring on the tube of the lever, you then need to gently push the lever back into the pivot frame, making sure that the two 'hooks' or ends rest against the top edge of the pivot frame.....then insall screw and tighten.

there are no speciall tools or devics to install the springs.....this is either a good thing or a bad one depending on how you see things!

I have sent you a PM, please refer.

[EastWest]

....well, I can see the spring for the 3rd Valve Slide, and how the spring is in active mode; but, now, to achieve this for the 1st Valve Trigger-Slide, is just another thing altogether.

It is dawning on me, how difficult it is to achieve this task; i.e. to put in Situ the Spring; the following appear to be the required sequence of steps; which, you can let me know, as to whether or not, you concur:

i) just by merely resting the hooks of this spring
on its inside-frame-ledge,
ii) and, whilst I keep the spring held in place, as I ratchet upwards the long bend of the spring, and ensure that, I hold it in place, whilst it is engaged in its full tensile-strength, and that too, without any device,
ii.i) bearing in mind that, the spring with the slightest movement will flick out of place, and it will be another thing hunting for it; then,
iii) I need to align the Lever of Trigger with its screw-holes to the holes of the small frame; and then,
iv) push through the hole the Tube-Screw, ensuring it meets its counter-hole, then, to screw it in;

all of which, is dawning on me, how difficult this task is. I take it that, you are a dab-hand at this? Erm...which is even more curious. My hat off to you; and, if I met you, I would literally don my hat off to you. Still, at present, i am none the closer to achieving completion of this much required task.

It is a serious challenge without any tools, tools which i cannot even foresee which they might be, other than a pair of pliers with plastic nose covering, i.e. to stop it from scratching the silver plating etc; though you say, there are no special tools; which, in my view, makes this activity even more curious; not to mention, down right precarious.

As such, it seems to me that, this activity will be a cause for great for concern, and am somewhat miffed

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[EastWest]

'I have sent you a PM, please refer.'

....incidentally, PM? not sure what or where this might be found; albeit, what its contents might contain...

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[seilogramp]

[EastWest]

....thank you so very much, seilogramp for your intervention; much appreciated.


Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[JayKosta]

Do the trigger parts on your cornet look like the ones in this picture -
https://wpmanager.buffet-group.com/besson/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/05/be928_full-1-e1462867754935-1.jpg

The spring in the picture pushes against the backside top position of the trigger in order to move the slide towards the valve casing. The 2 ends of the spring are bent into hook shape to secure them to the bracket on which the trigger is mounted. Does your spring have those 2 hooks, or are the 2 legs long and straight on your spring? If the legs on your spring are long and straight DON'T cut them yet!

Perhaps you can find a better online picture of the configuration on your horn.

Basic install procedure is:
Perhaps remove the main tuning slide if doing so makes it easier have access to the trigger.
1) position the spring on the the trigger with the loops around the small tube on at least 1 side of the trigger.
2) guide the open ends of the spring thru the bracket so the ends are pointing upwards
3) coax the spring loops onto the small tube on BOTH sides of the trigger
4) slide the small tube (with spring and trigger) into the bracket so the cross bolt can be installed.
This will require controlled finger and thumb pressure with one hand, and guiding the cross bolt with the other hand.
5) install the cross bolt

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[EastWest]

Thank you Jay.

So, the jpg of the Besson refers to their new iteration which is the latest model; which, is different from the BE-928 Sovereign French Made, mine being produced in c.2007, which is based on the older model for the levers; but, comprises of several new specifications, e.g. see list below; which, in turn, makes this quite a superb instrument, both for its tone and mechanics. This is not to say that, the latest Sovereign is less of an instrument, it is just different. As such, the lever are slightly altered, as are its springs 1st Trigger Slide, and the 3rd Trigger Slide.

So, my spring does have two hooks, on one side, and the other is a long flat leg; the spring for my Cornet is located in the this picture, which i hope you can see; the length of the leg, is different for the new Sovereign, i.e. the photo to which you refer; see below the url for the actual spring:


https://www.dawkes.co.uk/windcraft-1st-trigger-spring-boosey-hawkes-and-besson-uk-older-model-cornets-springs/8823

the length of the flat part of the spring which needs to come upwards, held by thumb, whilst, activating the tensile-strength of the spring is, in-itself a curious thing; whilst, carrying out the other steps with the other hand. Not a straightforward task; but, I am coming to terms with this aspect. However, still, need to contend with actually carrying out this operation; which, I only hope, that, I will be able to manage its completion successfully.

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[Andy Del]

These sort of springs are usually trimmed after installation, which makes it a little past near impossible to reinstall once they have been removed.

Take the cornet to a good tech who will MAKE a new spring, install it and trim the ends so you are back in business.

Or just replace the content with a non sovereign one. Might be the best thing you ever do! 🤔🤔🤔🤔

Cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[EastWest]

thanks Andy Del; but, the type of spring is not the problem per se; and, not to mention, the extraneous factor of introducing a technical discrepancy, is not going to be a solution to this issue; not least, the additional headache it may cause. All things require testing, and that too, a continual series of tests which amount to prolonged testing; which, in turn, provide assurance in the mechanics. Such, is the nature of any brand / reputation. Hence, it seems somewhat dubious to create / opt for something which is ill-fitting; though, it seems to me that, should there be a requirement for going down under, then, such a route may be an option

INteresting


Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[JayKosta]

[EastWest]

Thank you Jay; but, the option is not quite clear:

'It might be easier to lower the spring / tube /trigger DOWNWARD (or straight towards the valve casing) into the bracket.'

I am not quite clear on how you mean; how do you mean lowering the spring / tube? / trigger DOWNWARD (or straight towards the valve casing) in to the bracket?

The gunsmith- interesting; i would not have ever thought about that option. Erm...in the UK, it might take some doing to pay a visit to a gunsmith; hmnnn. And, if i turn up with my Cornet, they might think i am bonkers; unless, that it is, I play them a song on the trumpet / flugelhorn; but, then, they might think, that, I have come to the wrong place; or, they might think, i am short of a few musicians; unless, they, themselves are musicians too, then, they may start out with a bang!

Stunning!

But brilliant too

Erm...back to the option of this stout spring; yes, it is that for sure. I have attempted to test it; the tensile-strength therein, is quite something; it is robust. Thus, quite cumbersome to even conceive of it being placed by a thumb in to situ; whilst, seeking to align the other parts with the other hand. Nigh on impossible, albeit, so it seems.

Quite something, this challenge.

All thoughts welcome.

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[JayKosta]

If I am picturing it correctly, the chore is being able to have the trigger vertical and also having the spring's short legs (with hooks) flexed into the 'up position' so the small tube can be aligned in the bracket with the hooks in position over the top edge of the bracket.

I believe there is a very good chance of scratching the metal on the 1st valve casing by the hooks on the spring. And also a very good chance of having one of those hooks take a bite on your fingers!

Another possible 'mechanic' would be a true clock repair person - someone who works on old metal gear mechanical clocks.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[EastWest]

....thank you for your reply Jay; and, the due consideration that you give to this topical matter. Yes, you have got it; this is, indeed the situation.

I am glad, that, you concur with me on the aspect of the challenge of placing the spring in to situ with bare hands, i.e. the thumb; not to mention the tricky-nature of this task; which, may mean that, the thumb may well be pierced in the process, thus, in the process, resulting in an injury; i.e. if the spring is held just by a bare thumb. But, even if it was, it would pose a challenge to align the the lever, and the tub-screw through the tiniest of hole, and then to align the lever and the screw to its counter-hole on the other side.

I can't see it being done; which, to say the least, has perplexed me somewhat; and, I pleased to find you, concur with me too.


A clock repairer- now there is a thing; it could be possible that, such a technician would have the skill and tools to carryout this task successfully...
I will inquire; thanks.

Well, well, well. This has turned out to be a predicament.

It does beg the question though, how does a Trumpet Brass Repairer deem the repair to be a task which can be accomplished; a question to which its answer I am trying to fathom; how, or by what mechanism do they do it? I wonder, without causing any damage to the surrounding area, i.e. as you state, the Valve section that is adjacent to the small frame for the spring and lever, and the tubing itself? Curious... unless of course, they too cover it with some kind metal covering too? which, I would need to know about, if they do.


All thoughts welcome.

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[stumac]

As you are in London, phone Phil Parker and book a while you wait repair, it is a simple job that should not take more than 5 minutes and cost not more than the bus fare to get there.
Regards, Stuart.

[JayKosta]

Perhaps one of the professionals here will notice this thread and give their views - I'm thinking of: James Becker, Ed Kennedy, etc.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[EastWest]

Yes, stumac; thank you for your pointer re: Ray Parker, but, this shop since its move away from Baker Street, to the Euston Location, has become a mere shop for selling products. As such, it bears no resemblance to the old shop that it once was, in which, there was the knowledgeable personnel with whom all kinds of technical discussions would happily take place. Instead, now, we have shop assistants that, can't even comprehend the intricacies of the instruments, as none of them are technicians; nor, have a knowledge of all aspects related to materials, and mechanics of components. Instead, musicians are told, we send out the instrument to a repairer who collects everything and returns in a week; a total fiasco!

Anyway, presently, I am located in Liverpool and have not been able to return back to London due to the issue of Covid-19. As such, I am still exploring a possibility of a shop in Preston, Lancashire; or, better still there appears to be a shop in Leeds, to which, I may be able to travel to Leeds as i am going to Harrogate, North Yorkshire. But, first, will inquire via phone / email, and ascertain as to whether or not the affixing of the spring can be carried out whilst I wait. I do not want to leave the instrument and certainly not be out of sight.

Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C

[EastWest]

.... thank you so very much Jay; much obliged.


Thanking you in advance.

Regards,

Neeraj
[New member from London, UK
and, re-commencing my journey on learning & practising Trumpet / Cornet / Flugelhorn, which, has been left aside for some twenty-five years.]
_________________
Trumpet:
Bach Stradivarius LT1901B
Yamaha Xeno YTR-8335 S II
Yamaha YTR-634
Cornet:
French Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Silver Plate
CONN 1050A CONNquest
Flugelhorn:
CONN Vintage One 1FR
Mellophone in F: YMP – 204MS
Mouthpieces: Bach 3C