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Horns with slow taper bell


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giakara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Horns with slow taper bell Reply with quote

Hello, I have notice that horns with very slow taper bell like Lawler TL5-1A (before 2005) Getzen eterna C (my favorite bell and the easiest horn I ever play) and Bach 25 (I dont like the large bore) works great for me and I wonder witch other horns (trumpets or cornets,new or vintage) have very slow taper bells.

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Last edited by giakara on Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Bach 25 large bore, and I love the sound, but I wanted more resistance so I installed a 6 leadpipe on it. It's really awesome. Might want to look into that if you can.

The Benge 2X has a reputation as a very narrow-bell trumpet, but I've never played one.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the fast replay, truly the 2X bell looks like the bells I like .


Regards
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge 2X and 2X+
Schilke B2, B3. C3 along with a large variety of Bb's and C's with their #3 bell
Bach No. 5 (yes 5) bell if you can even order one. My New York Bach has one.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes , I had try a B3 but the big bore did work for me and always looking for a rare B2.
As for the Bach 5 bell is the first time I heard that exist , if you have any piccs please post them .

Regards
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Getzen Canadian brass Bb
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also like horns with tighter bells. The XO Ingram horn fits the bill.

Also really liked my King Super 20 and Martin Imperial Handcraft (pre committee)
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kramergfy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say, that in general, not all slow taper bells are alike.

The 2x for example, doesn't sound like a brighter 3x. Its different. More orchestral and C trumpet like. More core and ring, or brilliance, and less bright super sizzling. They sizzle of course, but not the same way.

The Bach 25 does not sound as bright as a 2x, at all. The 25 has a tight throat, but honestly not by much, the 43 bell is very close to it actually. The 43 and 25 are way closer than the 37 is to either, and the 72 is just as far from the 37 in the other direction.

If you want the slowest taper, check out a 1920-1930 Conn 24b. Small bore, slow bell. Your sound will put a small hole in the back wall. Then, branch out from there.

Personally, I just like a standard 37 ML. Best of everything. Core, sizzle, brilliance, resistance...it's my preference.

Also, give the Olds horns a try! I think you'd love an Olds Recording, Giarka. The olds bell is pretty tight. Not as tight in the throat as a 43, but the flare is tight! Fast flare on those, very steep. Opposite to the 1s bell.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replays guys, , I want to try those bells not for the sound but for the behavior, I have noticed that my two main horns my TL5 and my eterna both with very slow bells plays more secure in comparison with my other horns with faster bells like my TL6 a Getzen CB and my eterna cornet , I guess that the type of horns for me must be a very free blowing from leadpipe to main body , ML valve block and a bell with lot of resistance.

Regards
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Getzen Canadian brass Bb
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At first I wasn't interested so much in this thread, but I read it anyway and tried to recall some horns with slow tapered bells. The one that sticks out in my mind is the bell used for the Kanstul 1410 Bb/C Convertible trumpet. I had the honor of trying that horn for a month or so in order to write an article announcing it for the factory. The mandrel for that bell was made in the final few years that Olds was in business and Zig bought it with a number of bells that had been made from it. They had sat in his attic from that time until 2009 or 2010.

The 1410 had a great sound, I thought. The horn played better in C than in Bb, but the sound it had in Bb got me excited! I remember talking about it with Charles Hargett, saying I thought it would make a tremendous dedicated Bb. Apparently, I was not the only one who thought that. It may be that one or two Bbs were built, but I think Charles would have to confirm that.

Anyway, I thought that that bell would have made a better sounding 2X than the original Benge bell. I played a 2X once and thought it sounded awful, but that was after getting used to playing my Wild Thing. Zig once told me that he still had the original 2X bell mandrel which Eldon made, but he would not use it on the lathes they had by that time. The mandrel was made in 5 pieces held together by a rod and Zig was afraid it would fly apart, if it was spun at the RPMs that modern lathes use. They couldn't spin it slow enough. I think he said Eldon's lathe spun at 400RPM, or something like that.

I suppose B.A.C. could build a modern 2X using that Olds mandrel, and if they do, I think it would be something special. As a C trumpet, it is much brighter than the Bach pair and almost sounds like a good Eb bell. I have also thought it would have made a terrific bell for a herald C trumpet or Aida style C.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I’m not sure if this is really true but having played a Schilke B6 and just going by the sound and brilliance I’d assume it has a quite narrow bell as well, maybe the B4 even more so. I really like the B6.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What exactly is a slow taper bell? (I'm kinda curious and not being a native English, I don't quite understand what you mean.)
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
What exactly is a slow taper bell? (I'm kinda curious and not being a native English, I don't quite understand what you mean.)


It's a math thing. Rise/run ratio. If we think of the centerline of the unbent bell and measure how much the diameter grows as we measure along the length from the tail, the slower the growth, the narrower the bell remains throughout its length until it flares out to the rim. That is a slow taper and it usually produces strong high frequencies and weak low frequencies.

A fast taper, like a Wild Thing or Adams A4, is one that grows quickly along its length and produces stronger low frequencies.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation!
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bebop
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:57 am    Post subject: Slow taper Bell Reply with quote

Check out the Adams Gen I A1 Bb. It has a very tight bell taper then gets very large right near the end of the bell. A little like an old Selmer K-modified.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 24B is a good example all right, but not the "slowest". For that, you would need the 20kHz cut-off Cardwell bell for the Olds CHR / Reynolds ERA. (Dont try to play below double F with that though or it sounds really awful)
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm biased because I own some trumpets with big bells with big throats, my French Selmers B700 and Concept TT and my MG rotary trumpet, but I believe my Yamaha 6345 (no letter), the older version with the 0.463 bore and the standard weight, has quite a slow taper. And a 4 7/8 = 123 mm GB bell. I read an interview with a Yamaha designer who considered the 123 mm bell the optimum bell for a Bflat trumpet. Anyhow, my beloved 6345 is a hell of a trumpet with a fabulous full and concentrated sound and sure not overly bright.
Clear? Yes! But not bright, more clear and full. It seems that this YR bell functions the best with a larger bore.
I am quite sure about the slow taper cause I filed all my mutes for the YR bell and now I can't use any of them on my other trumpets, they just fall in.
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grune
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the issue is timbre. By far, the part that affects sound the greatest is the mouthpiece. I agree with a person above, the Bach 180-37 is the best all-rounder.

If I want a sound tending to piercing lead, I will use a Bach 1.5E. For orchestral, a 1.5C is very adequate, and 1.5B gives a broader tone. [I know, the E and B cups are very rare: nowadays I advise students to focus upon the 3 series of B, C, D, E].
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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, a rare horn that would fit the bill is actually the Yamaha YTR-6330B (or BS; in silver), Till Brönner's Yamaha. It's a strange animal - and nothing like I would expect from his sound and style. The bell actually has a very slow taper; to the point that many harmon mutes don't fit very well (or they sit far out). It also has the same leadpipe as the old Yamaha 6310z, so it's quite a bright horn.

https://www.yamahamusiclondon.com/YTR-6330BS-Bb-Trumpet-%27Till-Bronner%27/pidYAM-YTR6330BS

The bell has a considerably slower taper than my current main axe, a Charley Davis 1s-7 (which by no means have a large bell). It's my backup horn, quite nimble and plays very well in tune.

All the best,
Kjetil
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giakara
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrKristensen wrote:
Hi, a rare horn that would fit the bill is actually the Yamaha YTR-6330B (or BS; in silver), Till Brönner's Yamaha. It's a strange animal - and nothing like I would expect from his sound and style. The bell actually has a very slow taper; to the point that many harmon mutes don't fit very well (or they sit far out). It also has the same leadpipe as the old Yamaha 6310z, so it's quite a bright horn.

https://www.yamahamusiclondon.com/YTR-6330BS-Bb-Trumpet-%27Till-Bronner%27/pidYAM-YTR6330BS

The bell has a considerably slower taper than my current main axe, a Charley Davis 1s-7 (which by no means have a large bell). It's my backup horn, quite nimble and plays very well in tune.

All the best,

Very interesting, thanks.

Regards
Kjetil

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Lawler TL5-1A,TL6-1A Bb's
Getzen Canadian brass Bb
Getzen Eterna C
Selmer 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Getzen Eterna 850 cornet
Conn 81A Victor cornet
Carol mini pocket
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread

I have an Olds special with slow taper and it plays exceptionally well but this is not the slowest taper trumpet I have.

I have an old Huttl with the anchor stamp on the valve block.

This is a peashooter wrap with an exceedingly slow taper such that mutes sit way way out if I can get them in at all.

The tones are brighter but quite controllable and this horn was my go to horn for performances for years. I get rich full tones quite easily.

I dont see slow taper horns as an obstacle to sounding good if you have good tone control they deliver the goods.

I learned and performed on the cheapest junk horns bought for pennies and I recall a pro player who spotted me and my horn and asked if he could try my horn. He had a strad and I handed it to him.

It was a standard wrap and standard taper but just cheap Selmer London Student model instrument.

After a few phrases he threw it back in disgust saying this is a crap instrument for beginners only.

I got ovations and applause playing that crap horn that he could not play.

I recall a jam session with a pro who borrowed my chinese cornet that cost me 15 dollars that I bought for fun in my hunt for the worst instrument ever made. I never found an instrument that did not sound great so that was a fail.

He blew up a storm and got ovations from the audience on that supposedly heap of crap horn. We both got ovations I was on a 20 dollar horn and matched him. 35 dollars equipped the ensemble hahaha What fun we had that day.

All horns are good, it is the player not the horn.

Slow taper horns are fabulous instruments. I gig the Olds almost every day but that is more to do with the exquisite valves than the wrap or the taper.

I would gig any slow taper instrument in a heartbeat. As long as the valves behave.

Either you are in control of your horn or your horn is in control of you.
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