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Flat rim, deep cup?



 
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Filius
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Joined: 12 Jul 2020
Posts: 15
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:28 pm    Post subject: Flat rim, deep cup? Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I discovered this fantastic site several weeks ago and have been lurking ever since. What a treasure trove!

Right now I'm after some mouthpiece advice [EDIT: for a cornet]. After some trial and error, I think I'd like to try a mouthpiece like this:

Rim: flat, or higher at the inner edge
Bite: sharp
Inner diameter: 15.00 to 15.50mm
Cup: deep

I chose a flat rim because I've come to realize that when the rim is rounded, that makes the effective inner diameter bigger, in terms of how it feels to my lips. I have one mouthpiece that is about 15.50mm with a flat rim, meaning that it really feels that small to my lips, and I like it (it's a vintage Blessing 1C). The problem is that it has a shallow cup, which produces a rather brash tone. I want to try to work toward getting a more rounded sound.

I have tried a Bach 12, which checks all the boxes except the flat rim. The catalog lists the rim as being "broad, rather flat," but in my opinion it's not.

Does anyone have any suggestions fitting these specs? I would be using it with a Yamaha 2310 (for now). My budget will be on the stingy side but if you know of one that's expensive, I'd still like to hear about it.

Thanks!
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 542
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read Schilke and Yamaha seem to be flatter and this goes with my experience. If you're already on a yamaha cornet I'd try them first. I also tried a Wick 5b heritage at one point and found the rim to be fairly flat/sharp.

I also like flatter rims with bite but have heard that rounder often allows for more flexibility. It's always tradeoffs.
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 603
Location: Cincinnati

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try out some old school pieces. I’ve got a coupe that I really like. Can be taxing to play for extended length. The Wick 4 is pretty nice
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Goby
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Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you're looking for a Holton Heim. ACB makes a modernized copy called the H3S. it is almost exactly what you're describing. Very flap rim and a deep (but not too deep), V-shaped cup
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GrowlerBox
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Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 118
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
I've read Schilke and Yamaha seem to be flatter and this goes with my experience. If you're already on a yamaha cornet I'd try them first. I also tried a Wick 5b heritage at one point and found the rim to be fairly flat/sharp.

I also like flatter rims with bite but have heard that rounder often allows for more flexibility. It's always tradeoffs.


Schilke "4" rims are fairly flat, their standard "3" rim is pretty rounded, at least in the 3 (trumpet) pieces I have (13, 13B and 16). I would second the above assessment of the Wick pieces; both the 5 and 3B cornet mouthpieces I have are flat with a sharp bite and may suit, but their smallest (the 5) has a 16 mm inner diameter according to their charts, but as is always the case, there is limited comparability with the measurements of other manufacturers. It certainly feels pretty small to me, but it does have a very deep cup (the 5B and 5S mouthpieces have "medium" and "shallow" cups, respectively).
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Filius
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Jul 2020
Posts: 15
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies!

The Heim sounds like what I described except the Legends version doesn't come any smaller than 16.25 mm, which is about equal to a Bach 5C. I'm surprised people describe that as small. However, I realize that the rim shape and contour can make a mouthpiece feel bigger or smaller than its published specs.

The Schilke 5 looks a bit smaller but it doesn't come in a deep cup.

This is the problem I keep having, one of my stool legs is always missing! : )

I do like the idea of trying out vintage pieces, in fact I ordered one yesterday which is an HN White Equa-Tru 34. This is supposed to have a 15.50 mm diameter. It has a shallow cup, which isn't what I wanted, but apparently has a large, size 18 throat -- assuming the ebay seller's measurements can be trusted -- so that was intriguing, and seemed worth trying for $25.

Thanks again!
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 2931

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check this out:

https://patrickmouthpieces.com/store/#!/7-1B/p/11504059/category=2605557
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wilder
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Joined: 27 Jun 2020
Posts: 86
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi. A few things come to mind. This is for Cornet but what about trumpet? If you only play cornet okay but if you play trumpet too its a whole another ballgame. You need to play on more or less the same rims if you are playing trumpet too. 15.00mm is a very small diameter. I would stay away from anything that small in the cornet world. I recommend the famous Jens Lindermann post or video where he gives some very down to earth, sensible advice about mouthpieces. I would check out Dennis Wick first, should end the search right there. jw
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 603
Location: Cincinnati

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t buy it. I play way different mouthpieces on trumpet and cornet. I don’t have a problem. Oh and baritone. So three vastly different pieces with no problem
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8012
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a note about sizing. Various manufacturers measure their ID in different ways. And because the rim shape make a huge difference of how large a piece feels you really need to try a piece to know if it's going to work. A few here are suggesting the Wick 5 which boasts a 16mm ID. I wouldn't discount it based solely on the numbers. Here's a chart that suggests it may be more similar to the Bach 12 that you might otherwise expect.
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/fox-charts.php#
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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Filius
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Jul 2020
Posts: 15
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheiden,

I hear you. But so far I have found that the smaller the diameter, the better they feel. The exception has been the 12, which to me feels bigger than its published diameter of 15.20 mm due to the rounded rim, i.e. the high point of the rim is in the middle of the rim and not at the opening. So it feels to me in the neighborhood of 16.20 or more. Therefore I'm fairly well convinced that something measuring under 16.00 is where I want to be.

However I'm a comeback player in my mid-50s. Until recently all I'd ever played was a Bach 7C and 10.5C. So I know that I know next to nothing. The Wick 5 definitely seems worth a try based on all the recommendations.
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