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Rolled Out with a twist!



 
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:44 am    Post subject: Rolled Out with a twist! Reply with quote

Hi BE Explorers!
(and apologies Jeff..Ko.. I know I am the new guy on the block - playing catch up after 17 years! But here my latest input!)

I was practising roll outs - taking out the 2nd spit valve (the very small u shaped one) and pressing / releasing the 2nd valve to give my lips a work out - lips were once again out of their comfort zone. (so learning..) top lip was having to engage more.. this then gave me the idea.

Put the spit valve back where it belongs! (I have added this on an edit - could this explain the reason for the post below.. sori for confusion on my part..) Then go to:

Roll outs.. start on the normal pedal c..normal set up.. then - keeping the mp pedal placement the same - going for the same RO sound you achieve with the bottom lip this time with the top lip. The sensation (and sound pretty much) is the same as orthodox roll out but just upside down. I then go on to do a Roll Out Top Lip 4 exercise (starting with g at top of staff)

After 30 minute break i then did some normal playing and without any conscious effort noticed that my lips had presented me with a slighttop lip air cushion which was helping in the upper registry.

Any thoughts cos last thing I want is to be an BE insurgent! But RO Top Lip does tick at least some of the boxes.. ie encourages forward pout... padding.. mobilizes / gives the top lip a wake up call. helps (at least for me) to reduce mp pressure.. encourage airpockets (as in RI) all BE hall marks?

Anybody ready to try RO TL ! and give me some feedback!

Jeff.. Ko.. thanks guys.. in 3 weeks on BE I have learnt heaps more than 3 years on my own.. luvin it! last thing I want you to think is I don't respect your history.. I am everyday reading all the old posts working back from 03 and still only mid 05! One of my favourite from Jeff
Quote:
BE was written, in part, to give players "permission" to go beyond fear-based boundaries. We can all do more than we think!


cheers steve in helsinki


Last edited by steve0930 on Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 4704
Location: Hawai'i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O.K. to qualify, I don't care much about mechanics. Give me an exercise and watch what I do and correct me if it's wrong. But if not, leave me alone. I'm not interested in microanalysis. So your post may appeal in more detail to others. So I ask . .

. . why are you playing with the second valve out? Does Jeff recommend that? The exercises are just a way of orienting your embouchure towards using both RO and RI to find a balance for you when you play in different registers.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.. and thanks for replying. You ask why?
Why not?! BE Explorers!

To clarify: this idea for a RO on top lip has nothing to do with taking out the 2nd spit valve - which should be in its place! (That was another exercise which did not yield immediate results.. unlike, for me, RO Top Lip)


Have you tried my suggestion for a rolled out top lip?

You are in normal RO pedal set up mode.. then transfer the air stream to the top lip.. inflate it.. for me I was pivoting the trumpet to achieve the required RO focused sound courtesy of the top lip. You can try starting with RO normal.. trumpet pivot high.. then as you go to roll out top lip trumpet pivot comes down to the floor..

Afterwards you can go to some normal RO4 or indeed normal playing mode..or a TOL exercise (or RO4 starting high and descending ) Did you notice any difference? For me TOL is a lot cleaner up to a C above the staff, my playing C (a big hurdle 4 weeks ago) opens up..and best of all I notice myself "overshooting" notes.. ie a d in the staff pops out as an f.. in my mind sign that I am going down the right BE trail..
On ALS3 my zip and sound much closer to the cd.. I think my top lip is deciding to loosen up..

thanks for replying.. as my wife Ljuba (from Moscow) says.. what we need is DISCUSSION!!!
cheers stay safe Steve in Helsinki (originally London)
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Larrios
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
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Location: Middelburg, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve,

If I understood your post correctly, you're basically suggesting to try - if only just for the sake of experimentation - to do RO with the top lip outside the mouthpiece rather than the bottom lip.

This idea had never occurred to me, and much to my surprise, it actually worked! If someone has difficulties to roll in the top lip, RO 3 + 4 done in this way could perhaps be a nice exercise to try.

Thanks for sharing!

Ko
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KO
Thanks for the support giving RO TopLip a tryout - but it was Jeff, you and "The Pioneers" who were turning on those runway landing lights back in November 03:

Quote:
At first you will learn the extreme ends of the total range of motion package, which are rolled-out lips on one side and rolled-in lips on the other side.
KO

Quote:
You have to start the development process somewhere. In the beginning, more movement is better than not enough movement, in my opinion. Refinement to less movement is inevitable
Jeff

now I can start to enjoy landing the plane!
cheers for now Steve
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know if Jeff would weigh in on this.
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"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, in general, I am not a fan of practicing with the mouthpiece low (in the red) of the top lip. It leads to all sorts of bad results.

I've had a couples of players who attempted to do their RO exercises in this reversed manner. The players reached a particular level, and stopped making progress.

In BE, I encourage players to experiment, but within boundaries that I consider to be safe (and which have predictable positive results). Even so, the boundaries I give are considered by some players to already be too radical.

In general, I never say to never experiment. But sometimes, experiments for the sake of experimenting are just a waste of time, and sometimes can harm progress. The psychology of the player can be disturbed by trying to juggle too many changes. It might be good to reread pages 141-142.

Proceed beyond the BE boundaries at your own risk.

Jeff
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for taking the time, Jeff.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jeff, Be Explorers,

I read your post last night just before I went to bed. "Cripes" I thought. What am I doing.. trying to shoot out the very runway lights - BE- that are making learning the trumpet a truly enjoyable experience for the first time. Biggles would be appalled (- my boyhood reading - betrays my age!)

This morning I reread your post - specifically - I am not a fan of practicing with the mouthpiece low (in the red) of the top lip. It leads to all sorts of bad results. -

So to clarify: my idea for RO Toplip is pivot driven. The lip set up for RO does not change at all(maybe some microscopic change) The Top Lip still firmly inside the mp - not on the red. what does change 180 degrees is the air focus - achieved by moving the trumpet bell to point at the floor. Now all the energy is on mobilising the TopLip - it can inflate with air and the top lip looks more swollen with air - the muscles from the top lip to the nostrils stand out - to achieve the correct sound you need probably an (even more) forward pout than with traditional RO. So "the look" of the lips is quite different from normal RO.

Do you remember all those years ago Michael from New Zealand posting that when BE really starts to kick in
Quote:
it feels as if I am pushing or thrusting the mouthpiece away from the teeth at the lips, MP pressure is then 'controlled' by how hard I push with my lips, NOT my arm. A very strange feeling indeed the perceived effort level drops to almost nothing, and the lips feel as if they control rather than resist the air. Range, tone, and power really really open up, and endurance is limited by the need for sleep. This does not happen for me every time, and sometimes only after an hour of playing do I fall into this feeling
Michael NZ.

I am hoping that this RO TopLip pivot exercise to exaggerate the padding feel of the top lip helps us move in this direction...

This morning (to convince myself I was not barking mad!) I went for the RO TopLip pivot.. then did a normal RO4 and woosh. the note 1 above high c (what ever that is) rang out so clear and focused that one of my ears popped! (I go swimming every day so I am not sure if my ears ever quite clear!) Before the days of BE g top of the staff was my limit for first session of the day(and when it came out it sounded not nice!!)


Comments Jeff.. or do I still enjoy "dangerous BE insurgent" status!?

cheers Steve in Helsinki
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, I never tell players to stop doing an exercise variation if the player believes that the variation helps.

However, I almost never endorse personal variations. I know the effect of the BE exercises as I have tested them over time and over a wide student population. I excluded a lot of other variations (including the reverse pivot) which seemed hit or miss, or ineffective.

There are players who think that BE is too radical, and there are players who think that BE needs to be even more experimental (they love experimenting). Steve, you appear to be in the latter category.

My official position is to be in the middle, as a lot of players unfamiliar with BE read this forum. If you like to experiment, and you can still make progress, great. But if you ask my opinion about a specific variation, and I have experience with the variation - and have found it to be largely ineffective - then I have to give my honest answer.

And as I mentioned earlier, BE has boundaries. When players say they are doing BE, it means something (or at least it should). BE is not everything to everyone.

Hope this makes sense!

Jeff
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jeff
Perfect sense.
When trumpet players buy the BE book they get the blueprints to build the house (embouchure) just right for them. If you are alerted to/spot something happening, which disregards the blueprints, someone enthuses about plans for a new tower over the West Wing, (say "playing in the red") you are duty bound to step in and advise. "Do that and I can no longer guarantee the integrity of your building Sir/Madame" This still leaves plenty of room for trumpet players to be creative about the finer points of their design - the last thing you want to feel you have to do, or we should need, is your stamp of approval for every kitchen plan or garden layout.

But best of all in the dna of BE is the fact that no one house / embouchure will be the same as another although they all started from the same blueprint - Magic!

Stay-safe- Steve in Helsinki

PS But it's soon 8 am in the morning here and my crystal whisky glass is empty..... an adjacent glass is full of blue white red and black rubber counters. Your trumpetteacher symbol reminds me of the Matrix.(the blue and red pills..) Ko once wrote that BE is a process - follow it and it can't fail to deliver results. This gave me an idea. For every practice (be it 5 mins or 20 minutes) I place a white counter in the whisky glass, for a feeling of "YES!" I'm rewarded with a red and for a new idea / technical insight a blue. Yesterday was 11white 6blue 7red. At the start of each day I empty the glass and start all over again. Maybe that's what I like about the trumpet - the feeling that each day you do have to start over. As for the black counters? Those are for the moments of frustration, when you almost want to hurl the trumpet. I had my share of black moments before BE so I got the counters ready. But so far in my BE life I've not needed to switch one!.
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the good words, Steve! Your approach to practice is... unique.

Jeff
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