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abundrefo
Heavyweight Member
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Location: Brazil
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 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:06 am Post subject: 8310Z Gen II - rubber waterkey seal? |
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Hi,
What kind of material is being used to seal the waterkeys of the current 8310Z (Gen II) trumpet?
I see it's black. Is it still the same rubber seal (with a nipple) that was used in the previous generation? Or it's a different kind of material?
Thank you. |
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Turkle
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry I don't have any useful information for you.
I just wanted to note that this is the most trumpetherald.com question of all time.
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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AJCarter
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:56 am Post subject: Re: 8310Z Gen II - rubber waterkey seal? |
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| abundrefo wrote: | Hi,
What kind of material is being used to seal the waterkeys of the current 8310Z (Gen II) trumpet?
I see it's black. Is it still the same rubber seal (with a nipple) that was used in the previous generation? Or it's a different kind of material?
Thank you. |
To my eyes, it looks to be the same thing. Same shape. Same color.
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abundrefo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 913
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Turkle wrote: | I'm sorry I don't have any useful information for you.
I just wanted to note that this is the most trumpetherald.com question of all time. |
If I really have to explain why I asked this question, here it goes:
1- The rubber seal (with a nipple) that was used in the previous generation was awful because, occasionally, it dries (and it shrinks) and the water key starts to leak badly. I used to play a 8310Z and it took me a while to figure out what was going on.
2- There are a lot of topics discussing the effect of cork vs. synthetic corks vs. rubber, and so on, here on the TH forum. And I did notice some horns are very sensitive to the material used on their water keys.
3- Besides the Yamaha rubber seal, there are other synthetic seals that are black but that do not dry that easily. For instance, there is the one that Schilke uses.
4- The only clue I have so far is that the 8310Z has a black seal in the water key. And, if Yamaha is still using that same rubber seal in their horns, I just think they are missing an opportunity to upgrade and find something that works better. |
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2many5s
Regular Member
Joined: 28 May 2014
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| abundrefo wrote: | | Turkle wrote: | I'm sorry I don't have any useful information for you.
I just wanted to note that this is the most trumpetherald.com question of all time. |
If I really have to explain why I asked this question, here it goes:
1- The rubber seal (with a nipple) that was used in the previous generation was awful because, occasionally, it dries (and it shrinks) and the water key starts to leak badly. I used to play a 8310Z and it took me a while to figure out what was going on.
2- There are a lot of topics discussing the effect of cork vs. synthetic corks vs. rubber, and so on, here on the TH forum. And I did notice some horns are very sensitive to the material used on their water keys.
3- Besides the Yamaha rubber seal, there are other synthetic seals that are black but that do not dry that easily. For instance, there is the one that Schilke uses.
4- The only clue I have so far is that the 8310Z has a black seal in the water key. And, if Yamaha is still using that same rubber seal in their horns, I just think they are missing an opportunity to upgrade and find something that works better. |
That little black seal fell out when I emptied first slide habitually just prior to opening note sitting in dark waiting for curtain to go up and lights to go on while sitting on a black stage, this only happens to you once in your career! (I used a tiny dab of silicone glue whenever replacing them and kept spares in the bag) |
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. I think the effect is similar to using cork rather than skin pads in clarinets. |
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chrisf3000
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe Yamaha is going away from natural cork, because of the fact that it shrinks over time. The latest compound they are using in the Gen. 3 Chicago and NY models is a firmer compound that is more dense and not as spongy as some neoprene corks. I have a feeling they might be using the corks with the new compound on the current 8310Z (Gen II) models as well. |
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. I think the effect is similar to using cork rather than skin pads in clarinets. |
+1
Natural cork is, for me, the best material for waterkeys. I haven't seen shrinkage of it over time either, and I've worked on many old horns. What happens is that the "seat" of the cork gets deeper and deeper as it compresses. They need replacing at long intervals, a small job. It's best to have a light seat on the cork to start with - this is also confirmed by Mr. Tanabe.
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multiphonic
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Joined: 14 Oct 2019
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:12 am Post subject: |
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This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
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Pete
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 1739
Location: Western Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: Re: 8310Z Gen II - rubber waterkey seal? |
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| abundrefo wrote: | Hi,
What kind of material is being used to seal the waterkeys of the current 8310Z (Gen II) trumpet?
I see it's black. Is it still the same rubber seal (with a nipple) that was used in the previous generation? Or it's a different kind of material?
Thank you. |
I replaced the nippled rubber water key seals on my 8310Z with cork and the horn definitely plays better. When those rubber seals get hard and worn the leak!
Pete |
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Turkle
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 2450
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
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Actually, multiphonic, Wayne has performed similar minor tweaks with materials on my horns that have radically altered the way it plays. I actually do think that Ed Kennedy is telling the truth, as I have personally witnessed it on my horns as well when visiting the Yamaha Atelier.
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Cork is the best material, period. It needs replacing every couple of years, but the rubber stopper idea is useless. It looks good but, as others have noted, shrinks and hardens with age. This sounds like voodoo, but maybe you should do the voodoo that you do so well...
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
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Multiphonic, seriously??
Because you’re not aware or you disagree does not necessarily make it so. FYI, a very well known and respected brass tech in New York told me, when I inquired about water key corks for my Benge, that different materials absolutely do affect response. It surprised me to hear that, but then again, I certainly don’t know everything.😳
Come on man.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3304
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: 8310Z Gen II - rubber waterkey seal? |
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| Pete wrote: |
I replaced the nippled rubber water key seals on my 8310Z with cork and the horn definitely plays better. When those rubber seals get hard and worn the leak!
Pete |
-------------------------------
Were the rubber seals leaking or cracked at the time of replacement?
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: | | Cork is the best material, period. It needs replacing every couple of years, but the rubber stopper idea is useless. It looks good but, as others have noted, shrinks and hardens with age. This sounds like voodoo, but maybe you should do the voodoo that you do so well... |
Absolutely not disputing the above, but wasn’t the reason for that little stopper supposed to be that it might fill the space and lessen any disruption, sort of like what an Amado is supposed to do? I seem to remember Schilke using that rubber water key “cork” for a while. Apparently they were not a good idea.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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multiphonic
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2019
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
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Multiphonic, seriously??
Because you’re not aware or you disagree does not necessarily make it so. FYI, a very well known and respected brass tech in New York told me, when I inquired about water key corks for my Benge, that different materials absolutely do affect response. It surprised me to hear that, but then again, I certainly don’t know everything.😳
Come on man.
Brad |
The solid material (cork, rubber, aluminum foil, chewing gum...) covering a water key hole influences trumpet resonance and projection and this can be perceived by the player or listener? It's a flat surface covering a ~4mm hole.
Snake oil.
Last edited by multiphonic on Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| multiphonic wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
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Multiphonic, seriously??
Because you’re not aware or you disagree does not necessarily make it so. FYI, a very well known and respected brass tech in New York told me, when I inquired about water key corks for my Benge, that different materials absolutely do affect response. It surprised me to hear that, but then again, I certainly don’t know everything.😳
Come on man.
Brad |
The solid material (cork, rubber, aluminum foil, chewing gum...) covering a water key influences resonance and projection? I call total BS. Show me some data otherwise and I'll gladly stand corrected..
Snake oil. |
Your opinion. Congratulations, Capt. Kirk.
Apparently you have experience and expertise superior to guys recognized in the industry as experts, so how about some data that supports YOUR opinion?
Is it within the realm of possibility that you’re not as sensitive to trumpet response characteristics as some others are?
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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multiphonic
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2019
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
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Multiphonic, seriously??
Because you’re not aware or you disagree does not necessarily make it so. FYI, a very well known and respected brass tech in New York told me, when I inquired about water key corks for my Benge, that different materials absolutely do affect response. It surprised me to hear that, but then again, I certainly don’t know everything.😳
Come on man.
Brad |
The solid material (cork, rubber, aluminum foil, chewing gum...) covering a water key influences resonance and projection? I call total BS. Show me some data otherwise and I'll gladly stand corrected..
Snake oil. |
Your opinion. Congratulations, Capt. Kirk.
Apparently you have experience and expertise superior to guys recognized in the industry as experts, so how about some data that supports YOUR opinion?
Is it within the realm of possibility that you’re not as sensitive to trumpet response characteristics as some others are?
Brad |
Sure. But I am quite sensitive to ridiculous claims. Get your 'experts' to provide some actual data, re: impacts of flat surface material composition when covering a ~4mm hole on air turbulence within a water key chamber and, in turn, resonance and projection produced by a trumpet, then we'll talk. I bet they can't.
Last edited by multiphonic on Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| multiphonic wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
|
Multiphonic, seriously??
Because you’re not aware or you disagree does not necessarily make it so. FYI, a very well known and respected brass tech in New York told me, when I inquired about water key corks for my Benge, that different materials absolutely do affect response. It surprised me to hear that, but then again, I certainly don’t know everything.😳
Come on man.
Brad |
The solid material (cork, rubber, aluminum foil, chewing gum...) covering a water key influences resonance and projection? I call total BS. Show me some data otherwise and I'll gladly stand corrected..
Snake oil. |
Your opinion. Congratulations, Capt. Kirk.
Apparently you have experience and expertise superior to guys recognized in the industry as experts, so how about some data that supports YOUR opinion?
Is it within the realm of possibility that you’re not as sensitive to trumpet response characteristics as some others are?
Brad |
Sure. But I am quite sensitive to ridiculous claims. Get your 'experts' to provide some actual data, then we'll talk. I bet they can't. |
🥱
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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multiphonic
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2019
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | multiphonic wrote: | This doesn't pass the laugh test:
| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I have personally witnessed, on two occasions at clinics, Yamaha Atelier technician, Wayne Tanabe, advocating natural cork in waterkeys. An improvement in resonance and projection was apparent in both cases after he replaced synthetic with cork. |
|
Multiphonic, seriously??
Because you’re not aware or you disagree does not necessarily make it so. FYI, a very well known and respected brass tech in New York told me, when I inquired about water key corks for my Benge, that different materials absolutely do affect response. It surprised me to hear that, but then again, I certainly don’t know everything.😳
Come on man.
Brad |
The solid material (cork, rubber, aluminum foil, chewing gum...) covering a water key influences resonance and projection? I call total BS. Show me some data otherwise and I'll gladly stand corrected..
Snake oil. |
Your opinion. Congratulations, Capt. Kirk.
Apparently you have experience and expertise superior to guys recognized in the industry as experts, so how about some data that supports YOUR opinion?
Is it within the realm of possibility that you’re not as sensitive to trumpet response characteristics as some others are?
Brad |
Sure. But I am quite sensitive to ridiculous claims. Get your 'experts' to provide some actual data, then we'll talk. I bet they can't. |
🥱
Brad |
There is a sucker born every minute. Apparently every 30 seconds in the trumpet world. |
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