Olds Super, Feb. 2021

[dstpt]

Hello to all Olds aficionados. I recently got my first Olds–an Olds Super–from a collector, so now I'm finally learning first-hand about the Olds brand. I did a google search for "olds super site:trumpetherald.com" and got...

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=olds+super+site:trumpetherald.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

...which is a lot to digest. The SN is 11025 and has matching SNs on the valves. It's in very good shape and plays extremely well. Definitely a little brighter than some of the others in my present stable, but definitely an "employable tone," if that's fair wording.

I have found conflicting dates of build for this SN (1938, '39, '41) from three websites so far:

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/Oldslist.html
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1052115
https://www.robbstewart.com/olds-trumpet-and-cornet-serial-numbers

This model has an adjustable 1st saddle in addition to the standard adjustable 3rd ring. I notice that silver tone ring (bell garland) has inscribed "Super Olds"...seems like that should read "Olds Super." Funny thing. Maybe it's that way on other Olds models, where the model name comes first?

I've tried to measure the 2nd valve slide inner diameter, but my micrometer is finicky...seems like I should say it's a 0.460 inch, but sometimes it looks to be as small as a 0.453, which I don't think is right. I know that the MV Bach Mercedes was a 0.453, except the last 10% or so of them were made a little larger at a 0.456, and I recently sold one of the latter to a local jazz player who had that exact model as his first tpt. (How much do I need to spend on a really good micrometer. Mine only cost $20 or so and has the LED readout.) When I measure my Eclipse with MAW valves, it seems to consistently read as a 0.460.

This Olds lights up very easily, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was a little smaller bore than my other ML bore horns. Then again, maybe that's more the nickel silver playing into the tonal profile. The valves and slides on this puppy are fantastic, though, and the compression still seems solid. I'm guessing this horn sat in a closet for a very long time. It has brass valve balusters. I think I've seen some with stainless steel uppers.

Lastly, of all the Olds models, where would you put the Super in your list, and what do you like better about any other models? Just curious.

[Goby]

The Pre-War Super is my favorite Olds. Robb Stewart's list is the most accurate, which puts your horn at 1941 construction. 14,000 marks the US's entry into WWII, and Olds stopping their production because brass was needed for the war. Post-WWII Super's had a brass tone ring due to a nickel shortage, and some speculate that these horns are made of brass from melted shell-casings. Your horn should be a ML (.459") bore, but maybe it was a one-off special order in M bore. Have you measured the other slides and tuning slide diameters to see if they all match? Also, the inscription "Super Olds" is totally normal. It should have wings engraved alongside the make and model.

Ranking the Olds line up, at the time of your horn's manufacture, it would have gone as follows:

Super Recording
Super
Standard
Special

Go back a couple more years, and you would see the French Model as the top of the line trumpet (predating the super), and the Military Model somewhere in the middle. There was also a Symphony model trumpet available in a few bore sizes.

After WWII (circa 1948) Olds introduced a few new models and spun off the Super-Recording into the Recording model. The ranking was as follows:

Mendez
Recording
Super
Studio
Special
Ambassador

Personally, I would take a Recording over a Mendez, but the Mendez was a bit more expensive in its day.

A few years later they added the Opera as a competitor to the Martin Committee Large bore and Conn Connstellation. The Opera was more expensive than the Mendez. For whatever reason, the Opera doesn't get much love today, but it's an absolutely killer horn. A major sleeper if you ask me.

Retrospectively, the best Olds were the ones made in the Pre-WWII period, with Super Recordings taking top dollar. The Pre-WWII Super would have been built to the same quality, but isn't as sought after because it isn't as rare. Those early Supers and SR's had so much hand work done with the engraved nickel ring, nickel knuckles in-between pistons (we're talking 4-digit serial numbers for that), dual adjustable slide hooks, trombone water keys, "airplane style" braces from leadpipe to bell. All relics of a bygone era of design. For my money, the Pre-WWII supers are the best, since they have all the hand work of the early Super Recordings, but aren't nearly as expensive. LA Recording models made around 1950 are my favorite to collect because there are a few variants in valve block shape and engraving, and the materials are beautiful.


In terms of overall quality of manufacture and consistency, the early Fullerton horns are probably the best. LA instruments are more collectable, but Fullerton was a state-of-the-art facility. By that time, the designs were less artisanal and more "modern"; sleek lines and clean profiles were in. Hand engraved tone rings were gone, the Recording engravings were done by hand, but it was a standardized design. The Ambassador was taking the world by storm. I don't think they lost many craftsmen in the move to Fullerton, but they definitely upgraded their equipment and had a lot more space to make horns. After 1967, quality took a nosedive (most noticeable on the student horns), but there were still a few nice horns being made. The Clark Terry signature models are super collectable, as are the shepherd's crook Ambassador cornets. The custom series trumpets from that era are supposed to be nice, and they had a "Custom High Range" model which had a very narrow bell.

[dstpt]

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about, Goby! Yeah! Thanks for some serious input.

[Goby]

Glad you enjoyed my post. I love talking Olds.

Did you check the other slides on your trumpet to see if its a true medium bore?

I'll post reviews of the Olds that I've played/owned tomorrow

[dstpt]

Yep, definitely a 0.460 bore on all slides. I just have an inconsistent micrometer.

[EdMann]

Dude, I could go on about these horns. I've had a wartime '42 Super as my main jazz horn for almost a decade, brass tone ring, no nickel on the pipe and it came to me with original silver plate, standard for that era. After removing that, the beauty of the horn and attention to detail became apparent. Most important, the brass was thinner-- I had it measured by Robb at one point-- and the moment I played it, i could tell it was special. The intonation was unreal, slots like a mofo, and plays with the ease of a medium bore. But, it's .460, so you can give it some gas.

The rub on Olds has been their thick sound and fat core, and that's true, but with that thinner brass they used during the war, you have a refinement. It's a tremendous horn. Congrats.

ed

[dstpt]

Thanks, Ed, for sharing as well. Yeah, I think this horn definitely has something special in it. I will spend a little more time on it, but it may be one that I will have to sell due to the fact that Easter is the only gig on the horizon. Regardless, I'll thank you, Goby, and any others for your thorough replies of a history unknown and unexperienced by me until now. For any other response from me, feel free to PM me.

[Yamahaguy]

[bixtone]

Just for the record, Olds did make a few medium bore Supers. I owned one, an early prewar model, that was .453. I’ve only seen one other in that bore size.
_________________
Besson MEHA
NY Bach
Shires

[dstpt]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[dstpt]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

Guess that petty much confirms that what I wrote doesn't apply to your Super. I have no idea why the bore size is what it is then, though what some of the other posters wrote seems plausible.

[bixtone]

My.453 Super was from around 1938. Olds also made a large bore “Symphony” Super that was around .468 IIRC. So there was some variation in bore size, at least in the earlier years of production.
_________________
Besson MEHA
NY Bach
Shires