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kehaulani
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deleted_user_02066fd
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 Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| He's still amazing. He performed at a high school not too far from me about 10 years back with The San Miguel 5. The story was that he was supposed to do a workshop with the kids in the jazz band in the late morning early afternoon. He showed up at the school around 8 am and asked if he could use a room to practice. They found him a room and he practiced for 2-3 hours, did the workshop and the concert that evening. He probably used their weight room to work out as well, he's incredibly fit. He was 83 and sounded amazing. He came back to the same school 2 years later at 85 and sounded better that night than he did before. |
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tptptp
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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I last heard him about 2-3 yrs ago when he was 90. Still so inspiring!
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khedger
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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One of the greats who I never got to see live. Wow.....what a player!
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LaTrompeta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| khedger wrote: | One of the greats who I never got to see live. Wow.....what a player!
keith |
I've seen him live about 3 or 4 times, now. Amazing, every time! I saw him live back in January/February.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Saw him at a Texas Music Educators' Conference in about 72. He had basically the Tonight Show Band with him. I'm not nearly as impressed with things technical as I am musical. The place was packed and I'll never forget the way he brought the entire place to a standstill when he played "A Song for You". Just wonderful.
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rothman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| In the mid 70s with Pops orchestras, agree that he could 'wow' an audience, both with ballads like 'Song for you', or 'Malaguena'. He had a flair for stretching the time between either a cadenza, last note, or conducting strings..which made the audience wonder whether he would be able to make it...horn and body language seeming uncertain. When the climactic moment came, not only did he get there, but it was done in a way that was very smooth and convincing. |
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deleted_user_02066fd
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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As Doc has aged and lost a little bit technique wise I've found his jazz soloing much more inspired and thoughtful. I found his soloing when he was younger to be technically impressive but a bit mechanical.
I was told years ago by Arnie Lawrence that his "jazz solos" were actually written out for him. Arnie played sax in the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. It wasn't a criticism. more a statement of fact.
I fell into a conversation about Doc with Bob Civiletti some years ago and mentioned this. He pointed out that you had to be a hell of a player to play what he played, written or not. He also said he had heard the same thing.
Doc is one the giants even now. To still be able to play at such a high level at 92-93 is just incredible. Seems to me Doc Cheatham played incredibly well into his 90's as well. Must be the name!!!! Maybe I'll change my name! |
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tptptp
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I just love to watch him play. He'll flare his arms, contort his face a bit, flap his lips like he's tired....You think he's gassed like I always am.
But then, he'll play something high and fast with the most incredible, unworldly sound....
My my.
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Saw him at a Texas Music Educators' Conference in about 72. He had basically the Tonight Show Band with him. I'm not nearly as impressed with things technical as I am musical. The place was packed and I'll never forget the way he brought the entire place to a standstill when he played "A Song for You". Just wonderful.
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If I am not mistaken, on the recording of "A Song for You" from the album "Rhapsody for Now", Doc ends on an Eb above double C after an amazing cadenza. In 1974, I heard Doc perform live in South Shore Lake Tahoe. We were at the second show of the night and at whatever altitude Lake Tahoe is. Doc performed for 90 minutes and his playing was flawless. He ended the show with the record arrangement of "A Song for You" and played the same or similar cadenza at the end, ending on that same Eb above double C. It was live and it was perfect.
I got a chance to hear him last year at ITG in Miami at age 93 (?). He may not be playing many double Eb's any more, but he's still got it. He's absolutely amazing. What an inspiration. |
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khedger
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: | As Doc has aged and lost a little bit technique wise I've found his jazz soloing much more inspired and thoughtful. I found his soloing when he was younger to be technically impressive but a bit mechanical.
I was told years ago by Arnie Lawrence that his "jazz solos" were actually written out for him. Arnie played sax in the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. It wasn't a criticism. more a statement of fact.
I fell into a conversation about Doc with Bob Civiletti some years ago and mentioned this. He pointed out that you had to be a hell of a player to play what he played, written or not. He also said he had heard the same thing.
Doc is one the giants even now. To still be able to play at such a high level at 92-93 is just incredible. Seems to me Doc Cheatham played incredibly well into his 90's as well. Must be the name!!!! Maybe I'll change my name! |
I'd take the Lawrence story with a grain of salt. Severinson played all over NYC in the 50s and 60s, and some of the gigs were straight small group jazz gigs. You can bet that nobody was writing out solos for him on those....
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deleted_user_02066fd
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| khedger wrote: | | peanuts56 wrote: | As Doc has aged and lost a little bit technique wise I've found his jazz soloing much more inspired and thoughtful. I found his soloing when he was younger to be technically impressive but a bit mechanical.
I was told years ago by Arnie Lawrence that his "jazz solos" were actually written out for him. Arnie played sax in the Tonight Show Band when it was in New York. It wasn't a criticism. more a statement of fact.
I fell into a conversation about Doc with Bob Civiletti some years ago and mentioned this. He pointed out that you had to be a hell of a player to play what he played, written or not. He also said he had heard the same thing.
Doc is one the giants even now. To still be able to play at such a high level at 92-93 is just incredible. Seems to me Doc Cheatham played incredibly well into his 90's as well. Must be the name!!!! Maybe I'll change my name! |
I'd take the Lawrence story with a grain of salt. Severinson played all over NYC in the 50s and 60s, and some of the gigs were straight small group jazz gigs. You can bet that nobody was writing out solos for him on those....
As I said, Arnie wasn't being critical, just stating a fact. If anyone would have known it would be him. Doc is without a doubt a fabulous trumpeter. That said, Guys like, Clifford, Dizzy, Miles etc are far more interesting to listen to when it comes to improvisation. I've always felt the same about Arturo. Lot's of flash and dazzling technique but it never moved me. It always sounded like Clarke Technical Studies. I certainly wish I had the chops to do what they do.
As for the small group gigs you mentioned. I don't recall hearing that he did that. Since neither you or I was there it would be a guess. I would imagine Doc had a set stock of licks he used. We all do to some extent. The material was probably the usual jazz standards. I've seen a few performances over the years where the same material was played and his soloing was pretty much the same.
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Tony Scodwell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:50 pm Post subject: Doc solos |
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I can attest to what Arnie Lawrence was alluding to. I was his road manager and first trumpet for several years and Doc rarely left anything to chance. That said, his Xebron small group recording inspired me to call him (I was not yet with him) and say how wonderful it was and how his jazz playing was above anything I ever heard him play. Yes, he could improvise but in all the pops programs we did over the years, he methodically worked out what he was to play on the various programs. He would find a stairwell before the rehearsals and gigs and in absolute meter and duration play through what lay ahead, note for note. I would guess that was what Arnie might have been hearing during the Tonight Show years.
I was in charge of the big band library and for sure the solo sections of Doc's parts were pretty much what Tommy Newsom wrote out for him. Like I said, he didn't leave anything to chance.
Having played lead for Harry James earlier on, I never heard him rehearse anything. He hit the stand and played like, well, Harry James. We would rehearse new charts from time to time and believe me, one run through and Harry never looked at the chart again playing it by memory.
As Sammy Davis might say, "I hope Doc lives to be 130 years old and the last voice he hears is mine".
Tony Scodwell
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I saw Doc with the Utah Symphony at an outdoor concert in the summer of 1985. His playing was absolutely perfect. He ended a long, impossible-for-mere-mortals cadenza on his tribute to Louis Armstrong with a beautiful fat high F. He wasn't satisfied with it and said he needed to rest his chops for a minute, then had the orchestra start back at the last section and did the same cadenza. The high F was three times as loud with no loss of control or tone color.
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deleted_user_02066fd
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Doc solos |
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| Tony Scodwell wrote: | I can attest to what Arnie Lawrence was alluding to. I was his road manager and first trumpet for several years and Doc rarely left anything to chance. That said, his Xebron small group recording inspired me to call him (I was not yet with him) and say how wonderful it was and how his jazz playing was above anything I ever heard him play. Yes, he could improvise but in all the pops programs we did over the years, he methodically worked out what he was to play on the various programs. He would find a stairwell before the rehearsals and gigs and in absolute meter and duration play through what lay ahead, note for note. I would guess that was what Arnie might have been hearing during the Tonight Show years.
I was in charge of the big band library and for sure the solo sections of Doc's parts were pretty much what Tommy Newsom wrote out for him. Like I said, he didn't leave anything to chance.
Having played lead for Harry James earlier on, I never heard him rehearse anything. He hit the stand and played like, well, Harry James. We would rehearse new charts from time to time and believe me, one run through and Harry never looked at the chart again playing it by memory.
As Sammy Davis might say, "I hope Doc lives to be 130 years old and the last voice he hears is mine".
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Nothing wrong in being prepared. I don't think the audience cares whether he's memorized a solo or improvises one. He still puts on an amazing show. I said in my original post that I felt Doc's soloing was better in his 80's-90's. I've noticed the same thing with Arturo as well as he's aged. I've noticed Arturo's lost a step or two technique wise. His upper register isn't quite as big. First time I heard Arturo he was in his early 50's. He ended the show with 7 Steps To Heaven. He played the ending lick F-F#-G in the staff, took it up an octave, then another and one more for good measure. F-F#-G over Double C. I thought the walls would crumble it was so powerful. I don't hear that kind of power in his upper register these days.
His soloing seems more thoughtful and interesting instead of razzle dazzle.
We all lose the fight against Father Time. I ran a 5 minute mile in my 20's and averaged 6 minute miles in road races and benched over 200 pounds while weighing 130. I couldn't run that fast now if I was running downhill being chased by a bear with a 30 mph wind at my back! |
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Doc solos |
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| peanuts56 wrote: |
Nothing wrong in being prepared. I don't think the audience cares whether he's memorized a solo or improvises one. He still puts on an amazing show. I said in my original post that I felt Doc's soloing was better in his 80's-90's. I've noticed the same thing with Arturo as well as he's aged. I've noticed Arturo's lost a step or two technique wise. His upper register isn't quite as big. First time I heard Arturo he was in his early 50's. He ended the show with 7 Steps To Heaven. He played the ending lick F-F#-G in the staff, took it up an octave, then another and one more for good measure. F-F#-G over Double C. I thought the walls would crumble it was so powerful. I don't hear that kind of power in his upper register these days.
His soloing seems more thoughtful and interesting instead of razzle dazzle.
We all lose the fight against Father Time. I ran a 5 minute mile in my 20's and averaged 6 minute miles in road races and benched over 200 pounds while weighing 130. I couldn't run that fast now if I was running downhill being chased by a bear with a 30 mph wind at my back! |
I think Arturo could still razzle dazzle if he wanted to. He's only 70. 
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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american boy
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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I got to play with Arturo a few times; I got to play with Faddis a few times; Trust me , when these kind of players turn it up, you have to be praying that your fillings are cemented in good and tight! Never got to play with Doc, but he is without a doubt, one of the greats to ever play the trumpet, and that will never go away;
THAT SAID..Players like Lee Morgan, Dizzy,Clifford, Tom Harrell,Woody and Freddie are coming from a completly different place; Spontinaity,element of suprise,and the swinging thing is at the forefront of that world..so its all apples and oranges; Every player mentioned a master in their thing,and of course there are many more greats not mentioned..If Doc worked out a few solos,big deal..Its the way he played those solos that set him apart..he is one of my hero`s for sure! |
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deleted_user_02066fd
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Doc solos |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | peanuts56 wrote: |
Nothing wrong in being prepared. I don't think the audience cares whether he's memorized a solo or improvises one. He still puts on an amazing show. I said in my original post that I felt Doc's soloing was better in his 80's-90's. I've noticed the same thing with Arturo as well as he's aged. I've noticed Arturo's lost a step or two technique wise. His upper register isn't quite as big. First time I heard Arturo he was in his early 50's. He ended the show with 7 Steps To Heaven. He played the ending lick F-F#-G in the staff, took it up an octave, then another and one more for good measure. F-F#-G over Double C. I thought the walls would crumble it was so powerful. I don't hear that kind of power in his upper register these days.
His soloing seems more thoughtful and interesting instead of razzle dazzle.
We all lose the fight against Father Time. I ran a 5 minute mile in my 20's and averaged 6 minute miles in road races and benched over 200 pounds while weighing 130. I couldn't run that fast now if I was running downhill being chased by a bear with a 30 mph wind at my back! |
I think Arturo could still razzle dazzle if he wanted to. He's only 70. |
The closer I get to 70 (64) I keep saying that. I think that Arturo can still razzle dazzle as well. Maybe not quite like he did 20-years ago. I just think he doesn't rely on it the way he did. |
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deleted_user_02066fd
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| american boy wrote: | I got to play with Arturo a few times; I got to play with Faddis a few times; Trust me , when these kind of players turn it up, you have to be praying that your fillings are cemented in good and tight! Never got to play with Doc, but he is without a doubt, one of the greats to ever play the trumpet, and that will never go away;
THAT SAID..Players like Lee Morgan, Dizzy,Clifford, Tom Harrell,Woody and Freddie are coming from a completly different place; Spontinaity,element of suprise,and the swinging thing is at the forefront of that world..so its all apples and oranges; Every player mentioned a master in their thing,and of course there are many more greats not mentioned..If Doc worked out a few solos,big deal..Its the way he played those solos that set him apart..he is one of my hero`s for sure! |
I've also sat close to Faddis when he went full throttle. You're spot on about making sure your fillings are cemented in. Last time I heard him he fronted the SUNY Purchase Faculty Band. He didn't play a whole lot but man he was overpowering. He was off mic a lot and he still could be heard clear as a bell. They ended with Frame For The Blues from Maynard's book. He tore it to pieces. Guys like that are a whole different breed. I know a lot of good local pro and semi pro players. There's a huge gap between these people and players like Jon or Arturo.
It's like the difference between a good scratch golfer and an elite pga pro. Years ago I was at a pga tournament and at one tee the ball flight went over our heads. You could hear the ball cutting through the air. I'm a pretty fair golfer and I know a lot of excellent golfers, not one of them can do what I described. |
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rothman
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:41 am Post subject: |
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That Doc played the whole spectrum of pops, NBC, concertos, with a light horn pressure, was pretty rare. He usually didn't hold high notes fff volume, but rather used moderate volume, and crescendo'd toward the finish..which must've helped him stay fresh from day to day. Never heard who taught him that technique.
If someone were asked to pass a tough college entrance exam, with solid execution, in tune pitch, keen musical sense, 9AM, little or light pressure on the lips...how many could carry that off, very few probably.
Here you are..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI52vKSH45I |
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