Getzen Trumpets 907DLX : Dealers in the UK : Used as New?

[Bflatman]

There is no sales of goods act in the uk there is a sales of goods and services act, and the sales of goods and services acts were enshrined in law in 1979 1980 and 1982

The sales of goods and services act of 1982 is the current one.

This act does not cover the terms new and used as far as I am aware but instead covers the goods and the services purchased its contractual legality its performance its descriptions and its quality.

The act allows the sale of used items in the manner of new items and the requirement that the goods are as described only covers the description of the goods and any images that might be used to so describe the goods.

Nonetheless if the description states categorically in any advertised documentation appended to it that the goods are new then the retailer must honor this. The question then exists what constitutes new goods.

Goods tested by customers prior to purchase during a testing period become used but they are still legally new and can be sold as such

Goods tested in the factory for quality and performance become used but they are still new.

New and used are therefore inappropriate to describe goods all of which when sold new may be already used to some extent.

The question is one of what constitutes new and not new.

The only way forward on this question is "not purchased and not owned" versus "prior purchased and prior owned".

Is a product that is returned after a trial period an owned product. This is a delicate issue and one of, is the custodianship during a trial period true ownership.

The only question here must be has the manufacturers warranty been exercised during that short period with the first custodian prior to the return.

If in the opinion of the manufacturer the warranty is valid upon sale to the later customer following the return of the goods to the point of sale, and the customer who buys the trialled goods has acquired the goods as the one and only owner in the eyes of the manufacturer and enjoys all the rights as the rightful owner of the product. Then the goods are legally new goods when sold and not used goods.

All warranties are extinguished on the resale of used goods.

In other words if you get a warranty from the manufacturer the goods are new goods regardless of any tests or trials of those goods.

In many ways the question of new and used being an assessment of satisfaction of the goods when purchased is meaningless.

The reason is under the sales of goods and services act a retailer does not offer goods for a price for the customer to accept. Instead the retailer offers goods that might be purchased by a customer and the price is a suggestion or invitation for a customer to make an offer to purchase.

The customer drives the sale by making an offer of money for the goods. The inference here is that the customer is making an offer to the retailer to sell. The customer is not accepting any retailer offer.

This legally changes the whole interaction. By making an offer to the retailer the customer is accepting the condition of the goods whatever they may be.

The retailer is simply showing the goods to potential customer and inviting offers for those goods.

For the customer to turn around after the sale or indeed before it and say I do not like the goods as they are pre used goods makes no sense. The customer has approached the retailer and made an offer to purchase the goods and has already accepted them whatever the condition of the goods may be.

The customer can offer a lower price than the retailer has suggested in the price ticket if they have any doubts or uncertainties and the retailer can accept this lower offer.

In almost every case this principle of customer offer and retailer acceptance is misunderstood.

Once the sale has concluded if it is the case that the legality of the sale is in question then the sale can be invalidated and this is the purpose of the sales of goods and services act to enable the customer to exercise some rights if the sale is subsequently discovered to be in some way an illegal one.

This only applies in the uk.

In this case approaching the retailer and saying I am unhappy with prior tested goods being sold as new goods and I have no confidence that these goods are truly new goods, and then make them a reasonable lower offer may have found them to be accommodating.

This is all academic now but may be useful in the future
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[Carly]

[Bflatman]

The law is complex and describing it so that it makes sense leads to acres of text.

This is why legal experts are paid a fortune to interpret complex laws.

I find it odd that you ask what is a legal opinion in a difficult area of the law and then you dont like the answer.

I know you mean no disrespect at all but this wall of text is forced upon me to answer you fully.

Any less than this is a half assed answer. I dont do half assed.

I have seen others in society who refuse to read lengthy documents and then they complain that they dont understand the things those documents describe I trust you are different to them.

Cherry picking what you read leads to misunderstandings and I think that is where we came in.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[Carly]

[Carly]

[Bflatman]

Testing is not ownership under the law.

Ownership is purchase and is usually followed by warranty registration as the registered owner.

If goods are tested and returned to the point of sale following the test the goods are not purchased no sale is conducted and the goods cannot be said to be used goods.

Most goods are tested at the factory is this then a reason to argue that the tested products from that manufacturer are used products.

All Besson instruments are tested before sale. Does that mean that all Besson instrument are used instruments and none of them are new.

No interpretation is needed it is clear. Testing is not purchase. Purchase is purchase.

Do the customers buy the instrument prior to testing. Is the instrument that is returned already sold to them and their money returned to them under a testing and acceptance agreement.

This is not a straightforward legal issue no matter how much you wish it were.

It is a question of ownership for "used" generally means pre owned.

Is the instrument pre owned and tested during that ownership period or tested and not pre owned.

This is central to understanding.

All goods made by manufacturers are tested. All responsible manufacturers test their products it is a basic standard practice in manufacturing.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[Bflatman]

I will add this.

Testing does not shorten the life of an instrument.

As an example my daily player cornet is almost 70 years old and has perhaps another 70 years use in it and I play it for around 4 hours a day every day.

If we assume a customer owns and plays their instrument for just 20 years then the total playing life at 4 hours a day is 29,000 hours

Testing at most uses up 10 or 20 hours from the working life of the instrument. If we assume 40 hours testing time which is excessive, then the life of the instrument has been reduced by 0.1%

if an instrument costs 1000 pounds then approximately 1 pound value has been lost in this testing.

We have not discussed yet that customers need to test instruments to make sure they work for them and when a company goes the extra mile by making testing possible it seems unreasonable to make an issue out of their greater customer care.

Are we to punish companies who allow customers to test their products by reducing the profits they can make when they do this.

If the shop offered to entirely cover your losses due to this testing by reducing the cost of the instrument by 1 pound would you accept that.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[LittleRusty]

Edit:
I removed my possibly inflammatory post. Let's leave it that I disagree with a few of the previous posts.

It appears the OP was able to resolve this issue a page ago.

[Carly]