Bb to C conversion - who does it?

[Brassnose]

I know there have been discussions in the forum about Bb to C conversions and its pros and cons - I don’t want to discuss this here. Rather I’d like to know who will do this type of work.

It strikes me as really odd that this seems to be a American/UK thing. I do have a horn that I have been thinking about converting and while doing this also adding an exchangeable bell to be able to change the sound character when needed (brilliant, classical C sound vs. almost flugel-like in small woodwind ensemble). No instrument maker here in Germany was supportive of the idea; they all claimed that it would ruin the horn, freak out intonation etc etc.

So: who of the instrument makers does conversions to usable C horns?
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
196x/7x Hüttl Silver Colibri 69
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance/Klier/Curry

[LittleRusty]

I am curious why you are focused on converting a Bb rather than modifying a C to have the features like an exchangeable bell.

Is it that you already have a Bb? Or maybe you have a Bb that has some characteristics that you want in a C?

I am not trying to derail your thread and if your response is that you don’t want to go there that is fine.

Are you looking for techs only in Germany? Or in the EU? Or is an US tech acceptable?

There are some US techs whose names come up regularly on conversion topics. James Becker posts on here regularly and does conversions. Charlie Melk is another who is mentioned.

One other thought, perhaps you might want to consider making your exchangeable bells also tunable bells.

[Brassnose]

Good point. The main reason is that, indeed, I have a Bb lying around that I don’t use. Two Bb, in fact. I haven’t thought about going from C to C. Will need to think about that one, too. Customs wise and considering the shipping and all that, Europe would probably be easier, but US or Canada are on my radar as well.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
196x/7x Hüttl Silver Colibri 69
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance/Klier/Curry

[James Becker]

I suggest a Bach C180L238 or Yamaha’s equivalent will their U bell. The reason being these bell shapes were designed specifically for C trumpet. Having converted a Bach Bb 180-72 to C many years ago at the request of it’s owner I wouldn’t recommend it. The pitch was dreadful because the bell was too wide. Since the Bach and Yamaha bells mentioned are more proportionately appropriate for the key of C, you will encounter fewer pitch problems.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[Brassnose]

Interesting info, thanks. That would mean I’d need to purchase two bells. Need to do the math, but will consider it.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
196x/7x Hüttl Silver Colibri 69
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance/Klier/Curry

[OldSchoolEuph]

[Steve Hollahan]

I did this on several trumpets. It is successful if you measure properly from a C trumpet. As many C trumpets already have intonation problems, cut down seem to have the same intonation problems.

Conversely when I put the C to Bb conversion in my C trumpet, I get the Bb intonation problems one normally gets.

However, one must start with a good Large bore Bb for it to be successful.

For those with a plethora of good Bb horns and a good tech, it might work. However, it usually is easier to buy C trumpet and can be more cost effective
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com

[Shawnino]

Steve: got a website in English/etc.? I’d be interested to look.

[falado]

Hi, as I was reading through this thread it reminded me of my journey through C trumpets. I know you didn't want a pro-con, but here's my experiences.

I went on a C safari some time ago when I started playing with a local orchestra. My first C was an old Bach I got from my old college trumpet professor. I think it was a ML horn and boy was it stuffy to me and hard to control the intonation. I found out later he liked stuffy horns, or let's say horns with lots of resistance. At that time my Bb was a Benge 6X, large bore.
I bought a C that was a conversion, intonation was bad and sound wasn't right. I sold the Benge (big mistake) and the old Bach C and bought a new Schilke S22 C with a set of Bb slides figuring it would play the same on both sides. Wow was I wrong. The Bb side was great, I used that horn for lead gigs. But, the C side had all the characteristics of a typical C trumpet. You see, I was looking for a horn that would be easy to back and forth from C to Bb, wrong answer. I had talked to Jim Becker about going back and forth. He blueprinted my C and it was a lot better, but not quite there. All this time he suggested I get a Bach 239C 25A. I finally found a Bach 239 candidate and sent it to him for blueprinting. Viola, I now have a C that not only is a joy to play, but is in my daily routines. I got the C to use with a brass group I've just started, but everything is on hold at the moment due to covid-19 and recent thoracic surgery.

Now the next part, the mouthpiece. I could play on a Schilke 14, but never on a Bach 1 1/2C. Either Jim or Tim Cote at Osmun suggested I try a Bach Symphonic 1 1/2C 24/24. I not only can play it now, it works great and feels almost identical to my Curry 3BC which I use on my Bb.

So, after reading your post and seeing you want to go from flugel like sound withg a ww group to brilliant classical, you might want to try a Curry TF mouthpiece for the darker blend with the woodwind stuff and a C cup, or shallower but keep the same rim, for the brilliant. However, I find that the concept of sound is also in the head of the player. That is, I can change the characteristics of my sound though my mental process and cup depth on the same horn rather than changing bells. Although I understand the bell can change the sound. I had a Lawler TL STS (should have kept that one too) with 2 bells, the Lawler and a Bach Corp. side seam. That Bach bell really made the horn sound sweet. So, you might considered the mouthpiece and going with a Bach C, send it to Jim for blueprinting?

Just some thoughts, sorry it's so long

Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[Irving]

If you want to convert a Bb Bach trumpet into a C trumpet then any good repairman could do it. It would be a question of buying the proper bell and lead pipe. All of the other parts could be cut down(the valve slides). If it is another brand the then it is a crap shoot. Even with a Bach it is a gamble since you don't know how the horn will turn out. Best bet is sell the horn and buy a C trumpet that you like.

[wilder]

Don't do it. Get a C trumpet. Good luck! jw

[cheiden]

In my limited experience, C trumpet is challenging enough in it's own right. Better to get a C trumpet that does what you need most then see if you can adjust your sound with a different mouthpiece. I think trying to get a chameleon trumpet runs risk of it not doing either particularly well. And if a custom doesn't work out there really is no recourse. If you shop for a single-purpose horn you keep looking until you're satisfied, with little to no risk.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Brassnose]

OK, there are a few points in the last posts that got me thinking, but first off: I am not thinking about any of the Bb horns in the signature. I’ll keep those and would be stupid to cut any of those up, as they are great for what I use them for (orchestra and big band/funk/pop, respectively). The horn I have in mind is an old Blessing ML bore horn.

And ML indeed is the thing that got me thinking again: I used to own a Getzen Eterna C. I liked the sound but found it quite stuffy despite it being an L bore horn. Converting an ML horn may be even worse ...

I did have a nice experience with my flugel in the ensemble, so I may look for one of these old C flugels that come up from to time and then have that redone if needed, add a trigger etc. For quite some stuff I’d do, a regular C trumpet is just too much (poor flutes).
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
196x/7x Hüttl Silver Colibri 69
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance/Klier/Curry

[LittleRusty]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[nieuwguyski]

Ivan Hunter does do conversions:

http://www.jaegerbrass.com/services/modification.html
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[Brassnose]

Alright, it’s Wednesday morning and I can’t seem to sleep since about 1 am, so I figured I might as well report back on my Bb to C endeavor. Those of you reading my signature may have noticed the Blessing Franken C. This is it.

I talked to a top tech in my area (and yes, he is American, so these conversions seem to be an Anglo-Saxon thing, even in Central Europe) and he was actually quite forthcoming and positive about it - even said he had done that to a few Ambassadors before.

So, we (the tech, of course) took my Blessing Scholastic Bb and converted it to a very cool C. Replaced the leadpipe with a Malone type hidden reverse pipe, made a new tuning slide (the original had rotted out), adjusted the tubing, used LOADS of the original parts, added a finger hook on 1, etc. etc.

Sound is very nice and quite warm, but if I push it, it gets nice and brilliant, especially with a shallower mouthpiece. I currently use an AR Resonance ME40 cup with a 40L backbore. The L backbore is more open than what I use on the Bach Bb and balances out the ML of the Blessing (now) C very nicely. Intonation and blow are in fact better than before the conversion; the new leadpipe and tuning slide seem to have improved things a lot.

For those worried about money Overall, I’m not even remotely close to the price of a used Bach, as some of you suggested I purchase instead. Happy camper here, just need more time to practice.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
196x/7x Hüttl Silver Colibri 69
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance/Klier/Curry

[Riojazz]

As mentioned, Ivan Hunter.
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[iiipopes]

I have the opposite experience. I have a Couesnon small bore that has the long main tuning slide in a step bore configuration to convert from a C to a Bb. This trumpet has more consistent tone and intonation in the C configuration, especially with the proprietary mouthpiece that came with the horn.

However the OP may proceed, remember to pull the individual valve slides as well as whatever configuration, whether bell or main tuning slide, or both, is used to lower the pitch from C to Bb.
_________________
King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[Brassnose]

To be honest, I am slightly confused about those last two posts Three posts up I briefly described the conversion - it’s done and I am very happy with the results.

I now have a very nice C trumpet that cost me about 1/5 of a used Bach C plus I don’t have a horn at home that I don’t use. Not sure what the comment about pulling the slides means.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
196x/7x Hüttl Silver Colibri 69
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance/Klier/Curry