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Another brass instrument: soprano cornet or french horn?


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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:44 pm    Post subject: Another brass instrument: soprano cornet or french horn? Reply with quote

I'm thinking of expanding my collection. I am mostly a trumpet player, but now am pretty solid on euphonium, "ok" on c trumpet and trombone, and "meh" on piccolo. I do really enjoy the different instruments!

On the local market there's a soprano cornet at a reasonable price and there seem to be professional Jupiter french horns in okay cosmetic shape for around $1000.

What instrument am I most likely to have fun playing around with? If I wanted to play along with hymns or join a community band/brass band, how likely would I be to be able to play either? Are brass band soprano cornet players all pretty amazing? If you have a decent ear is french horn still quite hard?

Thanks!
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Finetales
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally a topic I can weigh in on!

Of the two, French horn will give you more utility, but will be very different than the other instruments. Eb cornet will be more familiar, but you can pretty much only use it in a British brass band.

If you go the French horn route, I would recommend looking for a used Conn 6D online rather than a Jupiter. They often sell less than $1000 and are solid horns. King or Reynolds Contempora double horns are good affordable options as well.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this is personal preference, is it not?
If it were me, French horn, hands down. Beautiful sound and great repertoire.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you are a very seasoned horn player I would recommend French Horn.
Playing a soprano cornet - mostly used in brass bands - is an undertaking that is special in many ways.I.e. you will have to be able to after being silent 26 bars enter playing softly an A (on the horn) - in tune..happily (and in tune with a delicate sound) play a long time around G top of staff. And this does apply to mid level bands only. Beware of higher class bands.
Which requires a lot of practicing if you don´t want to turn into a nervous wreck, besides minding the audience as well as the rest of the band.

So if joining a local brassband at some decent level you will have to go for it.....A very fine ear, tough chops and a sense of "dare - devilishness" might come in handy.

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A consideration is that playing French horn 'properly' (so it has the traditional 'horn sound') requires a different approach from trumpet. Also, the simple process of hitting the right notes is much more difficult - due to the placement of the notes in the harmonic series, and internal acoustics of having what is basically a low pitch instrument with a small bore - and with most playing being done in the upper 2 octaves of its typical 3+ octaves range.

My main instrument is French horn (I joined TH several years ago when my community band really needed trumpet - which I played in school - but went back to horn about a year ago). I really like the sound of horn, but it is very difficult compared to trumpet or euph.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, well one mistake a lot of trumpet players make is that they can immediately play relatively higher on the Horn, so they think they have it knocked. Wrong. What they don't take into account is, because of the overtone series, whereas middle and lower notes on the trumpet are spaced in a very manageable way, starting at about Bb in the Horn staff, succeeding upward notes are only a step apart.

What that translates to, is that accuracy on he horn is, relative to trumpet, treacherous. And, again, not to mention developing a beautiful tone, which is an art unto itself..

Nevertheless, I would still much prefer the Horn over a soprano cornet.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

French horn is fun. Yes there are things about it that are harder than they are trumpet. But there are also aspects that I think are easier. I have MUCH more endurance on the French horn.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:

... Playing a soprano cornet - mostly used in brass bands - is an undertaking that is special in many ways.I.e. you will have to be able to after being silent 26 bars enter playing softly an A (on the horn) - in tune..happily (and in tune with a delicate sound) play a long time around G top of staff. And this does apply to mid level bands only. Beware of higher class bands.
Which requires a lot of practicing if you don´t want to turn into a nervous wreck, besides minding the audience as well as the rest of the band.

So if joining a local brassband at some decent level you will have to go for it.....A very fine ear, tough chops and a sense of "dare - devilishness" might come in handy.


Honestly, this is kind of what I was afraid of There is a regular contributor here who said he plays soprano as a solo instrument. I think that's probably how I would use it, as there are no/few brass bands where I live.

Which is easier for transposing--Eb or F?

For french horn is harder to start on a double horn than a single horn? I do have a mellophone and find it to be a lot of fun. I noticed that on french horn fingering charts look more complicated, or at least there seem to be two sets of fingerings for every note.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:

... Playing a soprano cornet - mostly used in brass bands - is an undertaking that is special in many ways.I.e. you will have to be able to after being silent 26 bars enter playing softly an A (on the horn) - in tune..happily (and in tune with a delicate sound) play a long time around G top of staff. And this does apply to mid level bands only. Beware of higher class bands.
Which requires a lot of practicing if you don´t want to turn into a nervous wreck, besides minding the audience as well as the rest of the band.

So if joining a local brassband at some decent level you will have to go for it.....A very fine ear, tough chops and a sense of "dare - devilishness" might come in handy.


Honestly, this is kind of what I was afraid of There is a regular contributor here who said he plays soprano as a solo instrument. I think that's probably how I would use it, as there are no/few brass bands where I live.

Which is easier for transposing--Eb or F?

For french horn is harder to start on a double horn than a single horn? I do have a mellophone and find it to be a lot of fun. I noticed that on french horn fingering charts look more complicated, or at least there seem to be two sets of fingerings for every note.


There are french horn purists who say you must have at least a double horn. I will tell you that many players rarely use the F side of the horn, myself included. You really are not missing much if you play a single Bb. However, quality single Bb horns are expensive. I have a double horn and I also have a marching french horn. The marching horn is fun to play and I've played it a bunch in a little jazz band. When playing my double horn, I only use the F side for certain notes due to intonation, much as you would use your third slide on trumpet.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the answer really depends on whether or not you really want to play with a group and what type of group. French horns are usually welcome in community bands but are not used in British style brass bands where they are replaced by Eb Alto horns. Use of Eb cornets is pretty much restricted to brass bands and there is usually only one per band so the opportunities are limited.

I doubled between trumpet and French horn in high school and college but afterwards stayed with trumpet. I currently also play an Eb cornet. I don’t play it in the British brass band where I play Bb cornet but, besides playing it at home to entertain myself, I play it in a trumpet quartet and in an 19th century military recreation band.

I think you will find it much easier to go from your trumpet to an Eb cornet than a French horn, especially if you already play piccolo trumpet. That said, the French horn is a beautiful instrument when played correctly.
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't already have one, have you considered picking up a flugelhorn?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
...
For french horn is harder to start on a double horn than a single horn? I do have a mellophone and find it to be a lot of fun. I noticed that on french horn fingering charts look more complicated, or at least there seem to be two sets of fingerings for every note.

-----------------------------------------------------
For beginning French horn a 'single' horn - either Bb or F is fine, but there is nothing wrong with starting on a F/Bb 'double' horn. The single horns are usually lighter weight, and can be more suitable for smaller players.
I started on a single-F and later got a higher grade F/Bb double.

It is easy to get confused about the term 'double' horn and it being F/Bb. My view is that the instrument is just 'Horn in F' and there are multiple fingering options available. In printed music for the last 100 years you WILL NOT see any indications about which 'side' fingering is supposed to be used.
The 'double' does not have anything to do with transposing, and it is not particularly useful for playing Bb instrument parts.

I use the F-side fingering for notes up to the E at top of staff, and Bb-side fingering for F and higher. Probably because I spent a lot of time playing a single-F to start with. I can use the F-side for those higher notes, but the Bb-side makes them more dependable - it is not some sort of 'octave key'!
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I taught myself the French Horn and I've always played the horn in F (no trigger) up to the second line G. For Ab and higher I almost always use the trigger.

It's true that the fingering gets a little bit confusing but after a short amount of time it becomes second nature.

I think the double horn is the way to go.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Philip Farkas' Art of French Horn Playing, I believe the area between A and C in the staff is the crossover place for Bb to F fingering. I usually aimed for G# or A. It should be noted that some notes, when sustained, are more secure playing in the other Bb/F horn, regardless pf what is correct.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding French horn 'treacherous' notes ...
When using the F-side, all of these pitches can be produced without valve use:

Bb in the staff (not used, out of tune harmonic, but easily played)
C - good
D - good
E - good
F - bad / not used, but easily played
G -good

and there's similar pattern for the other valve combinations

Correctly imagining the desired pitch and precisely adjusting embouchure & air is required for each note. The acoustics of the horn itself don't provide a lot of leeway.

I think the pattern above is similar to how trumpet behaves for those notes ABOVE the staff, but for horn those notes are all in the 'often used' range.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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SterlingBell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

French horn is the answer. As an aside, I just bought a Wagner Tuba. It is in F/Bb like a French horn, but you can reverse the thumb valve to Bb/F and play it (kinda) like a four valve euphonium. I had Pickett Brass make me a flugelhorn rim on a French horn shank for it. Fun!
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cornet may be gone anyway. For horn, I do think the transposing will be harder for me. Someone said you just use circles of fifths. I've never done that before and wonder how long it would take me to get it.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For transposing hymn music in Bass Clef, horn is not too bad.
Similar to playing Bass clef on Eb tuba using 'trumpet fingering'. But then adjust for it being played of F instrument, not Eb.

It's been a while, but I 'think' it goes like -
- for F instrument , add 1 sharp to key signature, read as treble, and play the line/space lower than written. Down an octave.
see here for details -
https://www.hornmatters.com/2008/07/transposition-tricks-bass-clef/

edit: I needed to do this when playing with brass 5tet accompanying church choir playing from hymnal.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.


Last edited by JayKosta on Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
The cornet may be gone anyway. For horn, I do think the transposing will be harder for me. Someone said you just use circles of fifths. I've never done that before and wonder how long it would take me to get it.

What transposing?

If it's a community band, you just read the music as-is. No transposing.

For "playing along with hymns", I don't know what that means.

If it's playing alone, play as-is. If It's with a group and you're reading Concert-Pitch music, that could be tricky. OTOH, if it is, just write out your transposed part at home and use that music for your hymn-group playing.

You can use MuseScore f(free) for that and, once you're familiar with that, it's a piece of cake. You just enter your music in Concert Pitch and then hit the appropriate button and Shazaam!, it's transposed and in a legible form that you can just print out.

Don't confuse this with you would be required as an orchestral player. There's a lot of transposing but that would not apply in your circumstance.

I don't know what the cycle of fifths reference is to.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the above post notes, almost all of the horn music that you will encounter in a community band will be written in the key of F so no transposition is needed. However, coming from a Bb trumpet, the notes that you see written on the horn music will be a different pitch. The same would be true going to an Eb cornet. In that case a written G will sound like a C on your Bb trumpet. In either case this takes a bit of getting used to.
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