How loud is your upper register?

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Okay, this is one of those posts that seems like a meat-head thing, but that's not why I'm asking. Mostly I'm just curious.

For the most part these days, the trumpets we hear are mic'ed and/or amplified and/or compression is added etc.

And as someone who does not play lead trumpet or hang out with lead trumpet players, I honestly have no idea how loud players like Wayne Bergeron are actually playing. You hear a recording of Wayne playing a double A and are like "wowza" but I have no idea whether that Double A is coming out of his instrument at 80db 100db or 120db.
How loud does a Double C actually have to be to cut through a Big band?

So forgive this question and potential invoking of egos that it is bound to generate but how loud is a 'loud enough' in the upper register?

Obviously distance from he source is relevant here.

[Brassnose]

Not a meathead question at all: when I lived in Philly I was a regular at Ortliebs Jazzhouse before it became an upscale fashion hangout (regular to the point that the barkeepers would pour my beer when I opened the door, but that’s another story). One night Terrell Stafford showed up and played some. He was SIGNIFICANTLY louder than all the other cats I had heard before. He did not seem to push it, it was just the way he played.
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[deleted_user_687c31b]

[zaferis]

I'll take that a 1/2 step further, having the fortune of performing with top players & groups (classical to jaz) and, as a freelancer keeping things going locally, playing with a lot of amatures that aren't as accomplished. One of the biggest differences, if not the most noticeable, is how loud and/or full the sound is. (this applies to all instruments) Plus, how softly and under control that sound can be in contrast.
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[Aspeyrer]

I’ve had varied experiences from what was described above.
I’ve heard Wayne live several times, always a treat, fantastic playing. There were only two instances that i recall the “lead” player playing louder than Wayne. One was airmen Of note, Brian McDonald, and the other was a stand in for the Gordon Goodwin band, I’m sure he’s a recognizable name, my apologies for not recalling. Wayne plays plenty full, but there are others that can as well (you specifically mentioned him, so I went with that example).

In the classical realm, I’ve experienced a huge variety of loudness. In my experience, amateurs tend to play louder than pros with worse intonation, pros tend to project better and have a clearer sound, better intonation helps blend much more. This isn’t directed at anyone particularly, just something I’ve experienced, there are so many variables. I’ve also worked with “lead” players that had tiny sounds. But the way they played the book they were heard just fine (and the way they were mic Ed). We can go further into detail about how that is done later (slight hangover on chords, hang back the time in some shout section stuff...).

Hope this answers your question a little

[patdublc]

I was playing next to Jon Faddis in a section when he was the guest artist with a band. On one piece, I had a high F on the end of the piece. Jon let me play it and then he came in on the F with me and ripped to to F above double C. It was so loud that I could no longer hear myself at all.
I think the top tier players have refined their game to the point that they can play as loud as they need to.
People tell me that I don't sound very loud standing next to me but project extremely well out front. I'm not sure if that is "loud" or not, it's more of a projection thing.
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[kehaulani]

I remember one day in a recording session, first-call L.A. player Larry Ford kept yelling at us, "Play louder, play louder!" My guts were aching and I finally yelled back, "I'm playing as loud as I can".

On a break, I told him, "Man, I can hardly hear you", and he said, "My concept of sound is like a corkscrew going right into the mic". On playback, he soared above the section. It's how you project not just blowing your guts out.

BTW, I played plenty of live gigs with Larry, too, and it was always the same. His presence was always felt in the section, but not overbearing. But to the listeners out front, he was loud and clear.
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[Brassnose]

I’d also agree with Aspeyrer on the classical context. I play first trumpet in a community orchestra and blending, precision, and accuracy is an issue. Our director usually wants us to play mf at most but focuses on intonation and the like. Pretty hard to do given the variety of skill levels we have. So here, it is not about loudness, but about blending and dynamics etc.

We’re so many brass players in that orchestra that we win anytime as far as loudness goes, but at some point it is not pretty anymore quiet playing is the much bigger challenge.
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1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[deleted_user_02066fd]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

I'd be curious if any lead player out there have a decibel meter and can say what their comfortable peak is on say a 4th Ledger G, Double A and Double C from about 8 feet from the device.

For me, A 100-105 decibels on a high F from a 8 feet is comfortable. Above that, the amount of energy required seems to jump up substantially. I can play a 4th Ledger G for example, at 105 but the note starts to lose focus. Once I hit the double register, 100 decibels seems to be more or less my limit. The 'comfortable' loudness for a double A is like 90-95. Which means it's half as loud as my comfortable high F.

In the middle register, I can fairly comfortably peak 110db but that's where the bell starts to vibrate too much and the overtones go nuts... Not something desirable.

He-who-shall-not-be-named has a video of a 123 decibel double C which is insanely loud assuming the device is accurate.

But I remain curious... How loud is loud enough? I mean, if you only need to be playing 95decibels to heard, then that's good to know, for example, because then you can cruise at 95. If 110 is what required, then that's good to know. Something to work towards.

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

[Al Innella]

A centered tone with projection carries further than volume alone.I have never had a problem being heard,and I never try to play too loud. I do think of filling up my horn and projecting sound, not how loud I can play a note.I remember playing a gig where the 2nd trumpet was so loud I couldn't hear myself.I started playing louder until the end of the set.
The leader who was also the lead alto asked what I was doing.When I told him what was happening,he said he couldn't heard the 2nd player he could only hear me.The 2nd player's sound spread and never left the brass section,where my sound projected over the band.

[Lionel]

Peanuts56,
Agree with your remarks concerning Jon Faddis.

It was back in the late 1990s and he headlining a small club in Northern California. A buddy of mine dragged me to the club. We walk in an this tall black fellow greats the two of us. Shaking our hands.. OMG it was Jon Faddis himself GREETING EVERYONE ENTERING THE JOINT.!

Thought he was the bouncer at first because he is a fairly tall guy. He played beyond excellent. At the time he apparently was going through a divorce and was cracking jokes about how his ex wife was working the court and judge. Getting them to feel sorry for her as she played the victim. Speaking in high falsetto Jon mimicked his ex saying,

"You treat me SOooo BAadd"

You kinda had to be there. But there he was taking one of life's catastrophes and turning it into a positive. Turning lemons into lemonade.
Making us all erupt in a belly laugh. The whole crowd having an happy evening.
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[kehaulani]

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[kehaulani]

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[kalijah]

[lipshurt]

Sometimes for fun at the the school where I teach, during a marching brass rehearsal we will have a decibel contest. Myself, other staff brass players and some good high school players will set up 20 feet (that’s a lot) from a decibel meter. Here is what’s basically happens in a room 60x60 feet and 20 foot ceilings:

For me I get the most decibels at around high C which is 118 decibels. If I play high G as loud as I can it sounds louder to everyone, but the meter says 112 or so.

One of our bone player staff guys can EASILY get 123 on the meter, but if you ask me it doesn’t sound that loud.

Our tuba staff guy, who is good, gets about 115 and it sounds like thunder.

Kids who are pretty good are about 2 or 3 decibels under the staff guys. 3 decibels is significant by the way.

Never tried it from 8 feet
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