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lakejw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: |
He played what I've heard referred to as "fly lead" - often an octave over the lead player.. |
That’s not a thing.
Cat was, by any standard, a super-hero on the trumpet. But you like Maynard better. And that’s ok - just leave it at that. Saying Cat was a “3-minute hero”...I don’t even know where to begin. _________________ New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
johnlakejazz.com |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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peanuts56 wrote: | delano wrote: | Mr. P, you have not the slightest idea what kind of musician you had to be to be in the Ellington orchestra. |
You read my mind. Kenton's name was mentioned and the poster wanted to know if Cat could have played the book that Maynard played.
While Kenton had a good band, there's no comparison between Kenton and Ellington. Ellington is one of the most important musical figures of the 20th century. I liked Kenton's band and saw them several times, but don't think of him in the same way.
There's the old musician's joke/story. A guy dies and goes to heaven and is being shown around by St. Peter. There's a couple of rows of modest houses and St. Peter tells the guy that the houses are for the Popes. High up on a hill there's a lavish mansion, he tells the guy that Duke Ellington lives there. The guy wants to know why the popes get the modest houses and Duke gets a mansion. St. Peter says, there have been dozens of popes but only one Duke Ellington. It wouldn't get the same laughs if you used Kenton's name. My first trip to DC in 2012 I went to the U Street area and found Duke's two childhood homes and had my wife take my picture. We did this before we saw the White House. Dozens of Presidents but only one Duke.
One of the big disappointments for me is never getting the chance to see Duke live.
As for Cat Anderson, I may be the only person in this thread who heard him live. When I heard him it was a few months after I heard Maynard live for the first time. As amazing as Maynard was, I damn near exploded when Cat took off. He played a few solos where he barely went over high C and also used the plunger on one. He was so much more than a high note player. |
Great post. You took the task to write it all down and I hope more and more people will recognize the importance of the Duke and his stars for American music. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:58 am Post subject: |
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lakejw wrote: | Robert P wrote: |
He played what I've heard referred to as "fly lead" - often an octave over the lead player.. |
That’s not a thing. [
Cat was, by any standard, a super-hero on the trumpet. But you like Maynard better. And that’s ok - just leave it at that. Saying Cat was a “3-minute hero”...I don’t even know where to begin. |
Never said Cat couldn't play. But since you don't like my observation, I already gave a suggestion where to begin. Educate me - point out a recording by Cat that you think an objective, reasonable observer would conclude puts similar demands on the soloist in comparison to "Maynard Ferguson" or "Titans". _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:25 am Post subject: |
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I heard Ellington's band play once; it was either 1972 or 1973. It was in a JHS auditorium. My first and lasting impression was these guys could play LOUD, and they were OLD. I haven't heard a big band since that played that loud.
I was in high school at the time and too dumb to understand what I was hearing. I liked it, though. The only other big band that I liked as much was a fairly recent version of Count Basie. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry wrote: | I heard Ellington's band play once; it was either 1972 or 1973. It was in a JHS auditorium. My first and lasting impression was these guys could play LOUD, and they were OLD. I haven't heard a big band since that played that loud.
I was in high school at the time and too dumb to understand what I was hearing. I liked it, though. The only other big band that I liked as much was a fairly recent version of Count Basie. |
One day way back during my college music major days my prof, a highly distinguished teacher and trumpet player stated to his brass choir trumpets,
"Have any of you heard just how LOUD a professional (trumpet) player can blow"?
His words struck me hard at the time. Probably because I only knew the man as a Classically trained trumpet player. At which he was quite the beast. So it seemed unusual to me to llook at the man as ever emphasizing sheer volume production. Yet there it was.
Not long afterwards I quit school and went out on the road with my horn. It was there that I finally understood justwhat the old man meant. Our "customers" were the dancers and concert goers. They wanted a loud, exciting band. I immediately found that my volume production had to build to over twice what I'd previously considered necessary. That and my tone had to remain consistent and in good quality.
It was hard work my friends. Yet nothing else improved my musicianship and confidence more than learning to really BLOW that thing we call a trumpet. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Lionel wrote: | Jerry wrote: | I heard Ellington's band play once; it was either 1972 or 1973. It was in a JHS auditorium. My first and lasting impression was these guys could play LOUD, and they were OLD. I haven't heard a big band since that played that loud.
I was in high school at the time and too dumb to understand what I was hearing. I liked it, though. The only other big band that I liked as much was a fairly recent version of Count Basie. |
One day way back during my college music major days my prof, a highly distinguished teacher and trumpet player stated to his brass choir trumpets,
"Have any of you heard just how LOUD a professional (trumpet) player can blow"?
His words struck me hard at the time. Probably because I only knew the man as a Classically trained trumpet player. At which he was quite the beast. So it seemed unusual to me to llook at the man as ever emphasizing sheer volume production. Yet there it was.
Not long afterwards I quit school and went out on the road with my horn. It was there that I finally understood justwhat the old man meant. Our "customers" were the dancers and concert goers. They wanted a loud, exciting band. I immediately found that my volume production had to build to over twice what I'd previously considered necessary. That and my tone had to remain consistent and in good quality.
It was hard work my friends. Yet nothing else improved my musicianship and confidence more than learning to really BLOW that thing we call a trumpet. |
Yes, hard work. But in the end you got the benefits, you are so good. Well done! |
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lakejw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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lakejw wrote: | Robert P wrote: |
Educate me |
No, thanks. His recordings are out there, listen or don't, I don't care. |
Interesting - you cared enough to make noise regarding my honest observations based on listening to him play and insist I'm all wet...but not enough to actually validate your noisemaking.
I'd be happy to revise my assessment if shown evidence that warrants it. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | lakejw wrote: | Robert P wrote: |
Educate me |
No, thanks. His recordings are out there, listen or don't, I don't care. |
Interesting - you cared enough to make noise regarding my honest observations based on listening to him play and insist I'm all wet...but not enough to actually validate your noisemaking.
I'd be happy to revise my assessment if shown evidence that warrants it. |
There isn't 'proof' because what Ellington was doing was very different to what Maynard did with his band. Ellington didn't want a trumpet player out front screaming high notes all concert.
However, I have no doubt that Cat could have if he wanted. Cat had a much harder job IMO and played lead, played solos, and improvised. Maynard played solos and played lots of shakes in lieu of the clifford-esque lines Cat would throw down.
Cat was a more complete musician, IMO. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Robert P wrote: |
I'd be happy to revise my assessment if shown evidence that warrants it. |
There isn't 'proof' because what Ellington was doing was very different to what Maynard did with his band. Ellington didn't want a trumpet player out front screaming high notes all concert.
However, I have no doubt that Cat could have if he wanted. Cat had a much harder job IMO and played lead, played solos, and improvised. Maynard played solos and played lots of shakes in lieu of the clifford-esque lines Cat would throw down.
Cat was a more complete musician, IMO. |
Maybe but that's getting away from my original comment that inspired all the ire - which it wasn't intended to.
I questioned whether Cat had it all over Maynard as far as upper-register awesomeness. I've never heard Cat play something that along with the agility and soaring sound of "Maynard Ferguson" or "Titans" that requires the staying power in evidence. Contemplating how Maynard starts out right out of the gate on both, then the percentage of the chart he spends playing and *where* he's playing. The fact that I haven't heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist but nonetheless I haven't heard it and that's all I can base my observations on. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 974
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Just jumping in with a couple thoughts.
Personally I love both musicians work.
I wish there was more available of Cat.
Typing in his name on Youtube gives a pretty
good amount of videos. I always type in
“Cat Anderson El Gato” then click it. Then
scroll down and a playlist option will be listed
and I click on that and let it run.
He did play the Ellington tour schedule for
all of those years traveling from town to town
and playing those dance band evenings. Then
it seems like he headed up his own band and
cut at least one album. Vegas never seemed
like it was for the feint of heart either.
That may not be apples to apples compared
to Maynard Ferguson and the NY Phil doing
Titans but for me there will always be a great
deal of respect for both of them.
Anyways its nice to think about these guys.
Have a good night. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Educate me . |
Ok, start with doing some research about the philosophical problems with ‘objective, reasonable observations’, which seem to be the main ground for you to start at random insults of a great musician. |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 901
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, I am not about to enter the who was better, Cat or Maynard, pissing contest.
I would like to comment on the topic " How loud is your upper register". John Coppola, who I studied with years ago, told me that when he played lead on the Kenton Band, he and Maynard were room mates. He once told me that at the end of the first set the band would play "A Train". On the last note the band was really wailing and that band could really play loud. No matter how loud the band was, Maynard would come in with a double C that completely covered the band. As John put it, "It sounded like a freight train coming through the ball room".
I once had the good fortune of listening to Doc practice on the Tonight Show set between the rehearsal and the taping. To this day, I have never heard a sound that was that huge and that loud. And it was in all registers.
Another time at Lincoln Center with Wynton Marsalis and the Lincoln Center Orchestra, Jon Faddis walked out onto the stage unannounced and sat in with the band. He stood off to the side and did not have a microphone. We were seated in the very last row, way up top against the back wall. When he played, regardless of the register, his sound was solid and focused and projected all the way across the hall. It was like his horn was pointed right at us from about three feet away. Now that's one loud upper register.
And now we return to our regular scheduled programming: Cat vs. Maynard. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Good idea, especially here. Let’s change the pissing contest for a name dropping comtest. |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 901
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:27 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | Good idea, especially here. Let’s change the pissing contest for a name dropping comtest. |
I almost forgot Mortimer Schmnedling from Dismal Seepage, Kansas. His high G was almost as loud as mine. More on point? |
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deleted_user_48e5f31 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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And this is only the beginning!
Tell us about the most famous player you have been in the section or at a gig and let’s enjoy. |
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deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Got to play behind Clark Terry once. Unbelievable experience. Nicest guy too.
I did a summer workshop for a week with Danny Stiles in the mid 70's. Another great player. Danny was also a good guy.
There was a guy in my area years ago who had been lead trumpet with a name big band in the 40's. He got drafted when WW2 was going on. After the war he went to college on the GI Bill and became a pharmacist. He continued playing locally and was amazing. I played several big band jobs with him. He would play lead all night and never miss. The guy who led the band always closed the gig with In The Mood. One night were playing that and he hits the high D at the end, big as a house and did a glissando to a double D. This was at 1 o'clock in the morning after blowing lead for 4 hours!! |
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JensenW Regular Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:57 am Post subject: |
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_________________ Wade
Yamaha YTR 737
The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 897 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | Not a meathead question at all: when I lived in Philly I was a regular at Ortliebs Jazzhouse before it became an upscale fashion hangout (regular to the point that the barkeepers would pour my beer when I opened the door, but that’s another story). One night Terrell Stafford showed up and played some. He was SIGNIFICANTLY louder than all the other cats I had heard before. He did not seem to push it, it was just the way he played. | I have also been baptized by Terrell Stafford's loud sound. He def. steps on the gas pedal. I used to try to play like that all the time and had to take a different approach.. |
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