• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Light and heavy trumpets


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
somedaylikechet
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Light and heavy trumpets Reply with quote

Hello there,

I'm not too familiar with equipment issues and therefore have some questions:
I see many posts on this forum, where people talk about heavy and light weight trumpets. What exactly is the difference between them in terms of sound/ playability?
What does it change, if you add those heavy valve caps to a regular trumpet? OK, they look cool, but it is a sound improvement?
What kind of weight is better for classical music and which one is better for jazz?
And on the scale between light and heavy, where would you place my good old faithful Strad 37G, ML bore?

Many questions, I hope many answers...

Daniel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JasonHarrelson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 869
Location: Denver, Colorado

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've opened a can of worms that will get you nowhere fast. Everyone is going to have some theory to answer this question. BUT I guarantee you none of it will make any difference unless you go play the all soon-to-be-mentioned horns.

Weight does not darken or brighten the sound of a horn. Almost everyone believes weight changes the sound, but it doesn't. I have a 4.5 pound horn that cuts like a knife and is as bright as any Schilke tuning bell. And I have a 2 pound Huttl that is worlds darker than my Bach 43 which weighs 12 ounces more.

Do heavy bottom caps change the way a horn plays? Yes
Do they darken the sound? No
Is this confusing? YES!
Does anyone know what is happening and why? Yes

I'll follow this thread...it could be interesting.

Jason Harrelson
_________________
Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
camelbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Dec 2002
Posts: 1375
Location: Dubai, UAE

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Jason. Sound is not directly correlated to weight.

Weight in a trumpet largely effects the realtionship between stability (both of the note itself and the sound at dynamics) and flexibilty.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Trevor

PS I also have a Strad and it falls right between my Kanstul Chicago (which can sound remarkably dark) and my Taylor (which can sound remarkably bright) in terms of weight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
plp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 7017
Location: South Alabama

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could one generalize that the dark/ cutting sound scale has more to do with bell material, bell bracing and thickness than the overall weight of the trumpet?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
MartinComittee
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i could be wrong about this one. but if so, an expert like jason will correct me i think


adding weight doesn't change the sound, though it changes the way the sound leaves the horn.

example: my Straub AP is a medium weight horn. i sounds dark in low register and has a bright sound in high register. my Straub EX-G is a heavy weight. it also sounds quit dark in the low register, and also sounds bright in the upper.

but with the AP the horn itself resonates more.... because the horn is lighter the horn itself vibrates more.... wich makes it easier for the horn to blend in an section or orchestra.
my EX-G projects more, its heavier, it isn't as resonant as my AP, and therefore the sound goes straight through the horn into the hall. this horn doesn't blend at all. with the same effort on both horns in the same section. you will hear me come out when i play the heavier one. and with the lighter one the sound will just blend in.


so conclusion: they both sound from dark to bright. but the situation in wich they can be used is different. (AP: more classical, EX-G: more solo, and jazz)

ok. experts let me know if i'm totaly wrong here. these are my experiences, but i think jason has all the info about this one....
_________________
Yamaha Bb 6335G
Straub EX-G (raw brass and glasspearlblasted)
Straub AP
Martin comittee T3465
Carl fisher (vintage-peashooter)
Eb: P. Secenaut
flugel besson souvereign
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shiryu
Veteran Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A heavier horn hasn't got a darker sound or anything like that but a heavier horn projects the sound more efficiently and farther, so they are praised by concertists. But still, all this depends on the quality of the horn. Friends of mine have said that I had a better projection with my new Lawler than I had with a Selmer Concept TT which is heavier.

The increase in mass of the whole or part of the instrument causes to reduce the vibrations induced by those of the airstream, and to shift them towards lower frequencies. (Is that really clear ? i'm limited by my knwoledge of english right here lol). the output is improved and the sound is richer in raised harmonics, providing a better perception by the audience.

In fact, should the the "heaviness process" not have been carefully done, the sound can get too bright, especially if the lowering of the frequencies of metal vibration brings it too close from certain fundamental vibration frequencies of the instrument.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tempo-rary
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 232

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Weight in a trumpet largely effects the realtionship between stability (both of the note itself and the sound at dynamics) and flexibilty.

Quote:
adding weight doesn't change the sound, though it changes the way the sound leaves the horn.

I agree. A simple analogy would be to compare sound projection to an adjustable flashlight lens. The sound transmittion can be broad and diffuse with a lighter instrument or more compact and dense with heavier materials. Add-on contraptions such as weighted valve caps, plate bracing, heavy leadpipes, etc. all contibute to the latter.

I believe the reason the after-market contraptions exist are that generally people prefer a very responsive, agile, light weight instrument, but find them lacking in certain areas due to the very characteristic, light weight, that provides these attributes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trUMBet67
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 217
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weight (of a same material) does change the sound ... the point is where and how much thick is the metal wall. (And / or the sound posts, obviously.) This, in general, influences the frequency spectrum, the radiated sound power at a given frequency. At a given volume some differences could't be so big as, for example, when you play fff or ppp. "Probably" the thick-heavy trumpet has a more rich sound spectrum, that sounds "dark" because mid and low harmonics are not dissipated in self vibrations of the instrument.
Another consideration: think of a thick bronze bell that has a particular shape (different from a horn bell). It sounds for some time if you hit it. It has its own resonance spectrum. This may not be so desirable in a horn. Here the shape has a greater part: if you hit a horn bell and hear "diiiiiinnnnnnggggg" i think this may not be a very good thing. "plok" could be better...

But there are so many variables...

Sorry, too much things to say and a too bad english...!
_________________
Umberto -
Bb: Conn 38B
Olds Super
Olds Recording
Conn 22B (3)
Bach 180 37 modified
C: SLB Callet New York
Flugel: Getzen Eterna 895S-T
Cornet: Getzen Eterna 800 LB Copper
Conn 28A
B&H Imperial
Piccolo: Schilke Herald Bb/A
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Solar Bell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 794
Location: Metro Detroit

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These horns play very dark and are very heavy!
http://community-2.webtv.net/dshaffer/hornmaker/page3.html

Be sure to see all 6 pages.
_________________
Chuck Willard


Last edited by Solar Bell on Thu May 05, 2005 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nextbrassguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 1428

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonHarrelson wrote:

Do heavy bottom caps change the way a horn plays? Yes
Do they darken the sound? No

Jason Harrelson


With all due respect, I have to take issue with the claim that heavy bottom caps do not darken the sound. About a year ago, I tried all three of the weighted valve caps which Curry makes for Strads (the CCAPs, Magnum CCAPs, and XXCCAPs) at a local music store. While neither the CCAPs nor the Magnum CCAPs noticeably affected the sound (they did affect slotting and ease of playing in the high register), using a single XXCCAP on the third valve darkened the sound considerably. Perhaps the XXCaps are unique in the impact on the sound of the horn?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
improver
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1075

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

with all due respect to all the physysist a heavy horn is more stable, less responsive(deader sounding), and sounds darker overall.of course this can be mitigated with mpc etc to some degree. that was always my arguement against Monnette and their heavy horns they dont sound like trumpets they are heavy,dead,sterile.I think bach does the best job of being all things to all men.Their sound is chamellion like in their ability to cover the spectrum of sound. I think Wynton and his clones( you know those New Orleans cats that dress and sound like him Irvin mayfield, Terrence Blanchard etc) are missing some of the great sounds that Dizz Miles Chet Freddie Got out of Conn, Bach,Martin. I mean what horn you play is a personal decision. but i think those guys would be better served on a more conventional instrument. Ive talked to Andy Taylor and he patterened his horn after a fench horn. Where he puts the resistance and the weight thingthey are trying to to make that unconventional sound .Its a market
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Gary Wilder
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 1314
Location: Schesslitz, Germany

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is kinda like choosing a car because of its weight.

A corvette is a heavy car, and fast. My jeep is also heavy, and not fast. A F1 racer is very light, but it could smoke a mini any day of the week.

Monette and Taylor make heavy horns, and a taylor is no monette.

A bundy is a light horn and a crappy one, while Ian Balmain plays a light C Eclipse in the principal chair of the Royal Opera....

Weight is a contributing factor, yes. But not the only one.
_________________
"Plan the flight. Fly the plan. Don't fall in love with the plan." - Lawrence Gonzalez

Handmade Bb Trumpet
Schilke 13B
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dcstep
Veteran Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 196
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trUMBet67 wrote:
Weight (of a same material) does change the sound ...


In the current issue of ITG Journal, Professor Thomas Moore validates this. His hypothesis was that weight did NOT change the sound, but he proved himself wrong. He's promised a follow up article for the next issue.

Dave
_________________
Dallas/Denver
1960 Schilke B1, GR67S
Conn Vintage One Flugel GR66FL/FD
Bach 229 C, with Blackburn leadpipe, Tanabe mods
Lawler TL cornet with Sparx mpc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cjdjazztpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 1534
Location: Nashville, TN/ New Orleans, LA

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
I think Wynton and his clones( you know those New Orleans cats that dress and sound like him Irvin mayfield, Terrence Blanchard etc) are missing some of the great sounds that Dizz Miles Chet Freddie Got out of Conn, Bach,Martin. I mean what horn you play is a personal decision. but i think those guys would be better served on a more conventional instrument.


What planet are you from? Terence Blanchard a Wynton clone? You need to do some SERIOUS listening my friend. I can see the argument about Irvin Mayfield doing the Wynton-thing, but Terence Blanchard??? Before you make allegations you should be well in formed which in this case you are not!!

Terence has his own voice which is VERY distinctive. He just happens to be a tad younger than Wynton and came out of New Orleans after him. I cannot believe you would say something like that!

This really backs up my arguments that people on here will say anything to make themselves SOUND smart when in fact happen to be CLUELESS!

I guess you think that Nicholas Payton is a Wynton clone as well right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Mark Bradley
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 1137
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree... Terrance Blanchard has gone WAY beyond Wynton, as well as most (but not all) jazzers on the current scene.

But having said that-- I'd really be curious to hear how he would sound on something other than Monette and think it might well be an improvement. But then, who am I to suggest what guys like him play? This guy is one of the big boys.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JazzBird
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah no one sounds like Terence Blanchard...I have heard his early stuff on Bach...and on the lighter then heavier Monettes...he always sounds like Blanchard 'The Cat' and very different from all other players on the scene...I think he sounds fantastic on his heavy Raja...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mark schorah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 668

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am by no means an expert but I thort that bore size had more to do with sound than weight. I think that heavier horns are more stable but that might just be me at the end of the day you'll get out of the horn what you put in

Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JasonHarrelson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 869
Location: Denver, Colorado

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct, the leadpipe and bell tapers and bore determine the "darkness" in the sound. Using the term "weight" is so mis-leading. The weight does nothing to the sound of a horn. I have a very heavy horn (over 4 pounds) that plays just like a Schilke tuning bell.

And what is wrong with a dark sound? I like a dark sound as much as a bright sound. I play lead and do my best to be bright and I play orchestral/solo/jazz combo where I play as dark as possible. I like them both...nothing to argue about.

Jason Harrelson
_________________
Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dcstep
Veteran Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 196
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonHarrelson wrote:
... Using the term "weight" is so mis-leading. The weight does nothing to the sound of a horn. I have a very heavy horn (over 4 pounds) that plays just like a Schilke tuning bell...


So you're saying that Professor Thomas Moore's test in the latest ITG Journal is wrong? He had the same hypothisis as you but changed his mind after developing a repeatable test that demonstrated that weight does matter. He'll have a followup article in the next issue.

I agree with you that taper and flare are REALLY BIG factors, but I also think that weight has an influence.

Dave
_________________
Dallas/Denver
1960 Schilke B1, GR67S
Conn Vintage One Flugel GR66FL/FD
Bach 229 C, with Blackburn leadpipe, Tanabe mods
Lawler TL cornet with Sparx mpc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JasonHarrelson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 869
Location: Denver, Colorado

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I am saying that weight does not change the sound. I have proven it time and time again. However, almost everyone on this board equates weight with heavy bracing. Well, weight isn't heavy bracing. If you attach 5 pounds of dead weight to the end of the bell, it will have a completely different affect than distributing 5 pounds of strategically placed bracing. And neither will darken the sound. It will only make the horn more efficient and bring out more of the natural overtone series inherent to that taper/bore configuration.

Weight really has nothing to do with the equation of efficiency either. I have built horns out of man-made and naturally light materials and my modifications are just as effective. The lighter weight had no change in efficiency.

The term "weight" is inappropriate and very confusing. Why does everyone have this strange assumption???

Jason Harrelson
_________________
Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group