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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject: Ergonomic valves |
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In another post (while correcting my interpretation of Adams' website), Trent Austin mentioned that Adams is building a valve block that combines the Olds Recording offset and the Selmer Radial concept. I am curious what others think of these ergonomic valve arrangements.
The offset we know best from the Olds Recording can be found on earlier instruments as well, particularly cornopians, but I have always found it distracting. Of course, I have all those decades of muscle-memory expecting inline valves. Who here will assert (as may well be) that it's me, not the valves?
The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers. Same question as above...
So now, combining both together..... thoughts? _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 696 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Having both Olds Recording and Selmer Radials I have no difficulty in changing from conventional valves to them.
I feel there is no advantage in having the offset second valve of the Recording however the 2 degree Radial mimics the action of the fingers to come together as they curl inward.
Certainly agree the Radials are superb horns, my 4, Bb, C, D and Eb preferred for Orchestra.
The combination of the 2 is interesting, a 2 degree offset of the 2nd valve at 90 degrees to the plane of the 1st and 3rd would be more interesting.
Regards, Stuart. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers. |
That's odd. I've played my entire career with normal valves. I picked up my Radial ... dunno maybe 8 or so years ago, and I've never had any issues with it - and I go back and forth between it and my Benge. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers. |
That's odd. I've played my entire career with normal valves. I picked up my Radial ... dunno maybe 8 or so years ago, and I've never had any issues with it - and I go back and forth between it and my Benge. |
I'll take that as another vote for it's me.
What are your thoughts as far as merit to the approach, and to combining with a middle offset? _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I've never played one with either of these enhancements, but I've certainly wished for one. Having to position one's hand and fingers in 'standard' way works against the natural formation of the hand and fingers. Having a valve block that accomodates the natural set of the hand and fingers makes perfect sense to me......
Having radial valves bind on you seems really weird to me. The angled valves align with the way most peoples' hands work....hmmm....
keith |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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I am pretty sure that, if offset or radial valves provide an advantage, other makers would be producing them too. |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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As an Olds Recording fan I can say I really do like the offset valves, as well as the displaced valve block. However, that wasn't the reason I bought it, it's more of an added bonus. People trying my Olds tend to hit their teeth the first time they try it. It's something you get used to when you play it more often but like others I have no issues going back and forth. If you're used to playing regular trumpets your whole life though, I can imagine it being a little weird. Give it time, you'll get used to it.
LittleRusty wrote: | I am pretty sure that, if offset or radial valves provide an advantage, other makers would be producing them too. |
It could also be that it's more expensive to build and has little effect on the sound, so most manufacturers will skip on them. Few players will pick a horn based on ergonomics but price is often a factor. So it makes sense from an economic perspective, but that's not to say that a trumpet that has ergonomic features won't play nicer. At the same time, if 90% of the players plays less than 1 hour per day average, the real benefit of ergonomics may not become apparent. There's a reason Olds called their trumpet 'Recording' after all. If you spend your whole life 8 hours a day in a studio, my guess is it'll matter.
Also, it's very hard to get 2 identical horns together where 1 is ergonomic and 1 is not for comparison. If there were an ergonomic and non-ergonomic of the popular professional models, you might see them used more often. |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 641
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think Adams has already released the ergonomic block. Some of the older A8 models had both the offset 2nd valve and radially rotated 1st and 3rd valve. |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:25 am Post subject: |
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On a related note, I’m aware of a custom offset 4th valve on a Schilke P5-4 built for a left handed player due to a birth defect. They tilted the fourth valve for her so it could be easier to operate, and did it at no additional charge. You gotta love it when a manufacturer steps up to fill a need. Bravo! _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | In another post (while correcting my interpretation of Adams' website), Trent Austin mentioned that Adams is building a valve block that combines the Olds Recording offset and the Selmer Radial concept. I am curious what others think of these ergonomic valve arrangements. |
I've always looked at this as "much to do about nothing" Of course, for those who want off-set valves and find them more comfortable, go for it. But the body has marvelous ways of adjusting and I personally see no problem with using the traditional valve set-up. For some, it might be advantageous. For most, it just seems to me to be a marketing device. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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I play an Eb Selmer Radial and do not notice anything special after using my « regular » Bb... _________________ S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais) |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves |
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kehaulani wrote: | I've always looked at this as "much to do about nothing" ...
For most, it just seems to me to be a marketing device. |
Understandable. Ergonomics takes a backseat to sound for me as well. But I will say that it's nice to have ergonomic valves on my Olds. It's just not a dealmaker or -breaker. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2020 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Here is another ergonomic (or so they say) valve arrangement. Scroll down to the K&K Vienna model:
https://brassego.at/en/flugelhorner/
To me the most ergonomic valves really are rotaries because I tend to lay the fingers flat rather then curl them. As a result I have, for decades, played piston horns not with the finger tips. Rotaries are much more amenable to that. But I guess that digresses from the original question. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Klier, Curry |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers. |
Crazy Finn wrote: | That's odd. I've played my entire career with normal valves. I picked up my Radial ... dunno maybe 8 or so years ago, and I've never had any issues with it - and I go back and forth between it and my Benge. |
OldSchoolEuph wrote: | I'll take that as another vote for it's me.
What are your thoughts as far as merit to the approach, and to combining with a middle offset? |
I'm game. I've not played one of the offset trumpets as far as I'd recall (and I probably would remember, cause I do). I've got small hands and short fingers, so the Radial setup is probably more beneficial than the offset middle valve for me, but I'd be interested to try. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 649 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Voltrane wrote: | I play an Eb Selmer Radial and do not notice anything special after using my « regular » Bb... |
I second that, besides for cost efficiensy I think there is a good reason al others stick to normal parallel valve configuration
The Olds Recordings I tried didn't give me a finger sensation either _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves |
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kehaulani wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | In another post (while correcting my interpretation of Adams' website), Trent Austin mentioned that Adams is building a valve block that combines the Olds Recording offset and the Selmer Radial concept. I am curious what others think of these ergonomic valve arrangements. |
I've always looked at this as "much to do about nothing" Of course, for those who want off-set valves and find them more comfortable, go for it. But the body has marvelous ways of adjusting and I personally see no problem with using the traditional valve set-up. For some, it might be advantageous. For most, it just seems to me to be a marketing device. |
Of course, that's a pretty easy argument to make when the alternative is not readily available. If offset and radial valve setups were ubiquitous and used by a lot of players we may find that a lot of people really like them and wouldn't want to do without them, once they had a chance to use them. I mean, there aren't too many people out hand cranking their cars to start them, or using less than 460k of memory on their computers these days, are there?
keith |
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