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Ergonomic valves



 
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

In another post (while correcting my interpretation of Adams' website), Trent Austin mentioned that Adams is building a valve block that combines the Olds Recording offset and the Selmer Radial concept. I am curious what others think of these ergonomic valve arrangements.

The offset we know best from the Olds Recording can be found on earlier instruments as well, particularly cornopians, but I have always found it distracting. Of course, I have all those decades of muscle-memory expecting inline valves. Who here will assert (as may well be) that it's me, not the valves?

The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers. Same question as above...

So now, combining both together..... thoughts?
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stumac
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having both Olds Recording and Selmer Radials I have no difficulty in changing from conventional valves to them.

I feel there is no advantage in having the offset second valve of the Recording however the 2 degree Radial mimics the action of the fingers to come together as they curl inward.

Certainly agree the Radials are superb horns, my 4, Bb, C, D and Eb preferred for Orchestra.

The combination of the 2 is interesting, a 2 degree offset of the 2nd valve at 90 degrees to the plane of the 1st and 3rd would be more interesting.

Regards, Stuart.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers.

That's odd. I've played my entire career with normal valves. I picked up my Radial ... dunno maybe 8 or so years ago, and I've never had any issues with it - and I go back and forth between it and my Benge.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers.

That's odd. I've played my entire career with normal valves. I picked up my Radial ... dunno maybe 8 or so years ago, and I've never had any issues with it - and I go back and forth between it and my Benge.


I'll take that as another vote for it's me.

What are your thoughts as far as merit to the approach, and to combining with a middle offset?
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khedger
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never played one with either of these enhancements, but I've certainly wished for one. Having to position one's hand and fingers in 'standard' way works against the natural formation of the hand and fingers. Having a valve block that accomodates the natural set of the hand and fingers makes perfect sense to me......
Having radial valves bind on you seems really weird to me. The angled valves align with the way most peoples' hands work....hmmm....

keith
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure that, if offset or radial valves provide an advantage, other makers would be producing them too.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an Olds Recording fan I can say I really do like the offset valves, as well as the displaced valve block. However, that wasn't the reason I bought it, it's more of an added bonus. People trying my Olds tend to hit their teeth the first time they try it. It's something you get used to when you play it more often but like others I have no issues going back and forth. If you're used to playing regular trumpets your whole life though, I can imagine it being a little weird. Give it time, you'll get used to it.

LittleRusty wrote:
I am pretty sure that, if offset or radial valves provide an advantage, other makers would be producing them too.

It could also be that it's more expensive to build and has little effect on the sound, so most manufacturers will skip on them. Few players will pick a horn based on ergonomics but price is often a factor. So it makes sense from an economic perspective, but that's not to say that a trumpet that has ergonomic features won't play nicer. At the same time, if 90% of the players plays less than 1 hour per day average, the real benefit of ergonomics may not become apparent. There's a reason Olds called their trumpet 'Recording' after all. If you spend your whole life 8 hours a day in a studio, my guess is it'll matter.

Also, it's very hard to get 2 identical horns together where 1 is ergonomic and 1 is not for comparison. If there were an ergonomic and non-ergonomic of the popular professional models, you might see them used more often.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Adams has already released the ergonomic block. Some of the older A8 models had both the offset 2nd valve and radially rotated 1st and 3rd valve.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a related note, I’m aware of a custom offset 4th valve on a Schilke P5-4 built for a left handed player due to a birth defect. They tilted the fourth valve for her so it could be easier to operate, and did it at no additional charge. You gotta love it when a manufacturer steps up to fill a need. Bravo!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
In another post (while correcting my interpretation of Adams' website), Trent Austin mentioned that Adams is building a valve block that combines the Olds Recording offset and the Selmer Radial concept. I am curious what others think of these ergonomic valve arrangements.


I've always looked at this as "much to do about nothing" Of course, for those who want off-set valves and find them more comfortable, go for it. But the body has marvelous ways of adjusting and I personally see no problem with using the traditional valve set-up. For some, it might be advantageous. For most, it just seems to me to be a marketing device.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play an Eb Selmer Radial and do not notice anything special after using my « regular » Bb...
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I've always looked at this as "much to do about nothing" ...
For most, it just seems to me to be a marketing device.

Understandable. Ergonomics takes a backseat to sound for me as well. But I will say that it's nice to have ergonomic valves on my Olds. It's just not a dealmaker or -breaker.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is another ergonomic (or so they say) valve arrangement. Scroll down to the K&K Vienna model:

https://brassego.at/en/flugelhorner/

To me the most ergonomic valves really are rotaries because I tend to lay the fingers flat rather then curl them. As a result I have, for decades, played piston horns not with the finger tips. Rotaries are much more amenable to that. But I guess that digresses from the original question.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The Selmer Radial Bb is an amazing and underappreciated horn in my opinion. That not withstanding, the valve angle drives me bonkers - I cant get myself to smoothly work the valves on those angles - just 2 degrees. I feel like I am going to wear them out as they bind under my forgetful fingers.

Crazy Finn wrote:
That's odd. I've played my entire career with normal valves. I picked up my Radial ... dunno maybe 8 or so years ago, and I've never had any issues with it - and I go back and forth between it and my Benge.

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I'll take that as another vote for it's me.

What are your thoughts as far as merit to the approach, and to combining with a middle offset?

I'm game. I've not played one of the offset trumpets as far as I'd recall (and I probably would remember, cause I do). I've got small hands and short fingers, so the Radial setup is probably more beneficial than the offset middle valve for me, but I'd be interested to try.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltrane wrote:
I play an Eb Selmer Radial and do not notice anything special after using my « regular » Bb...


I second that, besides for cost efficiensy I think there is a good reason al others stick to normal parallel valve configuration
The Olds Recordings I tried didn't give me a finger sensation either
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Ergonomic valves Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
In another post (while correcting my interpretation of Adams' website), Trent Austin mentioned that Adams is building a valve block that combines the Olds Recording offset and the Selmer Radial concept. I am curious what others think of these ergonomic valve arrangements.


I've always looked at this as "much to do about nothing" Of course, for those who want off-set valves and find them more comfortable, go for it. But the body has marvelous ways of adjusting and I personally see no problem with using the traditional valve set-up. For some, it might be advantageous. For most, it just seems to me to be a marketing device.


Of course, that's a pretty easy argument to make when the alternative is not readily available. If offset and radial valve setups were ubiquitous and used by a lot of players we may find that a lot of people really like them and wouldn't want to do without them, once they had a chance to use them. I mean, there aren't too many people out hand cranking their cars to start them, or using less than 460k of memory on their computers these days, are there?

keith
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