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Chet Baker, Art Farmer, puffed out cheeks, missing teeth?



 
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject: Chet Baker, Art Farmer, puffed out cheeks, missing teeth? Reply with quote

I have noticed in early photos of Chet Baker his missing lower front tooth. I am also familiar with Chet Baker's getting all his teeth knocked out in a bad drug deal. I've also read on this site that his sound improved after dentures because of the use of less pressure (& ditto for Roy Eldridge). My question has to do with Chet's embouchure before getting a full set of dentures. In some photos it seems like his cheeks are puffed out, but not to Dizzy Gillespie's extreme. If Baker had been missing some molars that might explain it, however it seems to me that in order to focus the stream of air forward (when narrowing the aperture, thus creating enormous back pressure) that cheek expansion would have to be 'all or nothing', Dizzy style that is. Also, some photos of Art Farmer seem to look similar to Chet. Can anyone fill me in?.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry James is said to have developed a puffed out cheek method and was told that it is incorrect to puff the cheeks. He then stopped puffing his cheeks.

I believe that cheek puffing is unnecessary and incorrect and it may be the case that Chet had developed cheek puffing at some time in his career and was advised to stop doing it.

I doubt it had anything to do with any missing teeth. I have personally never seen any picture of Chet that indicated he puffed out his cheeks although I am not an authority on this.

I suspect that if young players felt that their hero puffed out his cheeks they might be inclined to cultivate this bad habit. The less speculation the better on this.

I think that Dizzy was a great player despite cheek puffing and not because of it.
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craigtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not just Chet and Art, tons of great jazz trumpet players puffed their cheeks (to varying degrees). I feel like there are almost as many jazz trumpet players who do puff their cheeks as there are who don't.

Chet Baker:


Art Farmer:


Dizzy Gillespie (of course)


Fats Navarro:


Blue Mitchell:


Lee Morgan:


Kenny Dorham:


Miles Davis (occasionally):


Roy Eldridge:


Tommy Turrentine:


Red Rodney:


Terrell Stafford:


Nicholas Payton:


Brian Lynch:


Marquis Hill:


Dave Douglas:


Scott Wendholt:


Sean Jones:


Eddie Henderson:


John Marshall:


Joe Magnarelli:


Trombone Shorty:


...honestly this list could keep going on for a long time.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Harry James is said to have developed a puffed out cheek method and was told that it is incorrect to puff the cheeks. He then stopped puffing his cheeks.

I believe that cheek puffing is unnecessary and incorrect and it may be the case that Chet had developed cheek puffing at some time in his career and was advised to stop doing it.

I doubt it had anything to do with any missing teeth. I have personally never seen any picture of Chet that indicated he puffed out his cheeks although I am not an authority on this.

I suspect that if young players felt that their hero puffed out his cheeks they might be inclined to cultivate this bad habit. The less speculation the better on this.

I think that Dizzy was a great player despite cheek puffing and not because of it.


The less speculation the better on this. Yep.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young players are specifically warned by our first teachers not to puff out the cheeks. At some point, just for shiggles they try playing dizzy Gillespie style & conclude that puffed cheeks aren't optimal. I did & several I know did the same.

I inquire because I started a comeback in 2017 & quickly found that missing teeth were an impediment. I'm missing all my upper molars (& wisdom teeth) & also, the premolar next to the missing 6th year molar nearly broke in half with its outer cusp shearing right off leaving too little structure for a crown. I found that the missing upper teeth didn't form enough of a structural barrier to deal with the back up of sir pressure as the aperture closes while ascending above the staff. After just a few minutes I'm pooped trying to keep the cheeks firm & the air flow focused towards my lips. It's particularly a problem on the right side where the airflows around the corner of the missing premolar cusp. I had made plans with a dentist to fix all this when I lost my bass gig.

Now I'm planning to pickup where I left off dentally but I did let things go too long & I was told it's too late, but when getting a third opinion I'm going to propose an idea that might work. (Can't go too much into detail, as this isn't a dental forum!) I specifically addressed Chet Baker's photos because my landlord half chidingly suggested I just do the "Chet Baker thing" as he was under the misapprehension Baker's molars were gone even before getting the rest of his teeth kicked out. (My landlord played lead trumpet @ CSULB when Patatucci, Melvin Lee-Davis & Pete Huffager (SP? Denver Symphony) had to take turns playing with the big band).

So I can say that if it's possible (for me) to play with missing teeth & puffy cheeks it must be all or nothing. The cheeks must be totally inflated or not (& I just don't really want to. I'm absolutely certain from personal experience that it's counter productive to continue trying to maintain a firm embouchure while that embouchure us actively loosing its strength & integrity. Lots of dissipated energy. I also had a friend once tell me if Dizzy could do it, no reason I can't. Not necessarily, & it was very alienating to have that encounter. We're not made the same.

As for Dizzy he was a great innovator. Jazz historians arbitrarily point to Woody 'n You as possibly the first bebop tune (If there was actually such a thing). Manteca is sometimes referred to as the first AfroCuban jazz tune. Dizzy's improvisations were stellar, & even when playing clams, the clarity of intent was apparent.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Harry James is said to have developed a puffed out cheek method and was told that it is incorrect to puff the cheeks. He then stopped puffing his cheeks.

I believe that cheek puffing is unnecessary and incorrect and it may be the case that Chet had developed cheek puffing at some time in his career and was advised to stop doing it.

I doubt it had anything to do with any missing teeth. I have personally never seen any picture of Chet that indicated he puffed out his cheeks although I am not an authority on this.

I suspect that if young players felt that their hero puffed out his cheeks they might be inclined to cultivate this bad habit. The less speculation the better on this.

I think that Dizzy was a great player despite cheek puffing and not because of it.



I forgot about Harry James. Heinspired me to take up trumpet. My first two albums of his had photos of James playing the trumpet wearing the same suit, & obviously taken at the same time. One was a stereo rehash of his old hits, with Helen Forest taking the place of Kitty Kalen. That cover photo showed Harry with a textbook embouchure. The other album showed Harry James with puffed out cheeks. That was a 1961 album of new stuff, culminating with a smokin' version of Lester Leaps In. The first song I learned was Autumn Seranade from that album. After several months of playing just a euphonium mouthpiece, I was so anxious to play I couldnt wait to learn the basics & read mudic. Iwrote down the valves on a piece of paper: dashes between the valve numbers 1-23-13, etc & I nailed the A-flat above the staff the first time.

(Later when I saw Clark Terry solo on the tonight show band with Skitch Henderson my fascination for the flugelhorn (as a cooler sounding instrument) cultivated. I have an Adams F5 & sure hope to be able to play it.
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beagle
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the picture of Trombone Shorty he is probably circular breathing. This is a technique he uses quite a lot, and it is impossible to do without puffing the cheeks.
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tedthetrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sometimes deliberately puff my cheeks out as a (jazz) tonal resource, particularly on lower notes. But I'd never let a beginner do it.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as i already look stupid it isn't something to enhance. no cheek puffing.
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