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T.S. Confusion



 
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Dave Converse
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-03-13 18:45
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A little help needed clarifying a couple of points on the latest Callet book, Trumpet Secrets. On p. 10, he states "tongue pressure is constantly maintained to the teeth on the sides." That would be upward pressure on the molars rather than side pressure. Right?

Although I've read discussion on other posts, I still don't "get it" about the top lip squeezing down on or curling back on the top of the tongue while ascending. Can you guys really buzz between the top lip and the tongue? Man, all I get is some kind of double buzz sounding tone. I am pressing down on the bottom lip with the tongue tip and curling the tongue forward through teeth opened about 1 inch. But I just don't get a stable feel or compression between top lip and tongue top. What am I missing here? Thanx in advance for your input. Dave



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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-03-13 23:15
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<<"tongue pressure is constantly maintained to the teeth on the sides." That would be upward pressure on the molars rather than side pressure. Right? >>

Yes, the pressure of the tongue is upward. But don't sweat the sides too much until you get to 3rd ledger G or so above the staff as the extreme width of the tongue is not needed until you start to really get up there.

<<Can you guys really buzz between the top lip and the tongue? >>

Dave, This part of things is so darn easy that you are probably making too much of it. For practice purposes, just stick your tongue out between your lips and "splatter" a bit. As long as you don't try too hard, you'll feel the vibrations all over the place. But as you know from reading the book, the position of the tongue is quite different from this in actual playing. When I'm playing rather than buzzing I feel just a slight tickle on top of the tongue. I think that's the way it should generally feel. If you are trying to intensely feel the vibration while playing I think you are probably overthinking it to some degree. Let me know if this helps or confuses. Best regards, Kyle

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Dave Converse
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-03-17 05:22
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Kyle,

The last couple of threads have been very enlightening, but they seem to tell me that I may be further away from proper SC set-up than I first thought. I was doing pretty well, however, with the older SC.................definately felt compression (verticle center type) with the bottom lip coming way up via the bunched chin, and the tongue pushing the bottom lip forward. I also had the muscle roll on top and below the mpc rim that seemed to "bite" the mpc from the outside (does that make any sense?}

In pursuing the current TS teaching, everything seems to have changed. No top muscle roll, tongue curl filling front area in front of teeth to a point that I can barely touch lips together if articulation point is 1 " back from tongue tip. If jaw opened more, lips are pulled apart. Top lip feels "thinned out" (vertically) from pulling down below top teeth edge. Sound is powerful but not focused. I'm a real mess, huh?

I can play as I spit buzz and get clear attacks and good sound, but teeth have to be closer together and tongue is contacting upper teeth edge only about 1/4" back from the tip. Good overall control and sound, but zero sense of compression and no range out of staff. Which of these three set ups should I stick with? Maybe I need to hop a freight train to NY for a few days. Thanks again for your continuing help to all of us. Dave C.



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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-03-17 14:09
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Dave, Let me see if I can help.

<<In pursuing the current TS teaching, everything seems to have changed.>>

No, no way. TS is just an easier way to get the same muscular and musical results without as many miscues. Nonetheless, given all of our prior misconceptions and erroneous instruction, I admit that it is very easy to miscue on TS too. Mostly, it's our own preconceptions that slow our progress. Don't worry, we are all guilty. But keep at it, it DOES work.

<<No top muscle roll>>

Though the degree changes by individual, all proper embouchures will have a bulge above and below the embouchure. This hasn't changed for TS.

<<tongue curl filling front area in front of teeth to a point that I can barely touch lips together if articulation point is 1 " back from tongue tip. >>

Sounds like the tip of your tongue is going too low. The "curl" is a pressure of the "wedge" of the tongue up against the top teeth and lip. Definitely, it is done ABOVE the lower teeth. When done correctly, it will never spread the lips. Rather, the grip of the lips back and in against the tongue always brings the lips together, not apart.

<<pulling down below top teeth edge. >>

Articulation is done off the top lip right at the cutting edge of the upper teeth. The tip of the upper lip can feel like it hangs a bit lower, but the meat of the lip is on the inside and that is teeth height or actually a pinch higher.

<<Maybe I need to hop a freight train to NY for a few days. >>

Don't expect to accomplish a lifetime of goals in a weekend. I'm sure you don't. Nonetheless, that is the best few days of trumpet advancement you could ever get, IMHO.

Let me know what I've made more confusing! Best regards, Kyle



[ This Message was edited by: tptguy on 2003-03-17 14:12 ]

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Lex Grantham
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 13, 2001
Posts: 341
From: East Texas
Posted: 2003-03-18 11:41
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Kyle:

You made the following upper lip suggestion to Dave:

"Articulation is done off the top lip right at the cutting edge of the upper teeth. The tip of the upper lip can feel like it hangs a bit lower, but the meat of the lip is on the inside and that is teeth height or actually a pinch higher."

I had always thought it was very proper to bring the upper lip down very far to train it for contact with the top of the tongue...hence the use of pedal tone exercises in one's daily practice sessions.

Is your suggestion (above) to say that the upper lip should stay more in front of the upper teeth and not really ever move below the cutting edge of the upper teeth? Should the player actually attempt to press upward against the upper lip with the top of the tongue to make sure it does NOT get too low for better results?

Thank you for clarifying this.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

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Dave Converse
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-03-18 19:45
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Poor Kyle......................you've wound up being everybody's nursemaid now (LOL). Well, we all appreciate you. I may have learned more in these last few threads than all of readings I've done in the new TS book. Confused? Yeah..........I'm waaay confused. But I've been there before and lived to tell about it.

For now, I think you're telling me that maybe it's best to first get the articulations off the top lip with the top of the tongue (ala spit-buzz) and worry about the 1-inch back and 1-inch open stuff later. Maybe? I can get reasonably good sound and attacks that way and it DOES feel more like my older SC thing. Am I reading you right? Dave

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-03-18 23:04
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Lex and Dave,

<<Is your suggestion (above) to say that the upper lip should stay more in front of the upper teeth and not really ever move below the cutting edge of the upper teeth? >>

Yes. As you lower your upper lip you practically guarantee its collapse into the mouthpiece. Don't do that.

<<For now, I think you're telling me that maybe it's best to first get the articulations off the top lip with the top of the tongue (ala spit-buzz) and worry about the 1-inch back and 1-inch open stuff later. >>

Yes, I'm completely in agreement with that. And, I'm sure Jerry is too.

Best regards, Kyle


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Dave Converse
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-03-21 15:26
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Thanks Kyle,

Noooowww we're getting somewhere. Been working this week on just getting the articulations off the top lip with the tongue tip staying between the lips. Working much better now. I can feel the other ingredients taking shape also. There's really nothing quite like taking things one step at a time. I used to race sports cars and the rule was "slow down so you can go faster." Thanks again.............I think I'm on the right track now. Dave

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roelf
Regular Member

Joined: Mar 02, 2003
Posts: 42
From: Laredo, TX
Posted: 2003-03-22 14:15
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Hi,

Do you recommend SC for Legit playing?

Roel Flores

http://www.roelflores.com

"If I live to be 100, It still wouldn't be enough years to be playing the Trumpet !"
- Me

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Dave Converse
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-03-22 18:14
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Wow Roel,

The way you play, I don't think you have to worry about it. Nice website. BTW, yeah............SC can be used in any musical setting. Many of us find it to be a more efficient embouchure technique. Give a listen to Bahb Civiletti or Friedmann Immer. Dave
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