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verde75
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Joined: 28 Sep 2020
Posts: 4
Location: Monterrey México

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:01 pm    Post subject: Help! Reply with quote

Hello everyone here.

I have tried to find an answer to my troubles for quite a while (unsuccessfully) and I hope I have made it to the right place.

A little bit about me. I am 44 years old, I started playing the trumpet 3 years ago. So I am a very novice player that has started to learn quite late in life. I love the trumpet.

I have been trying to develop, like every trumpet player, both range and endurance and I have noticed the following:

I have 2 sets of embouchures (or so it seems to me) (see attached drawing. The drawing is on a Twitter URL, I couldn't get the image to load correctly with the post)

On my first embouchure (left (top) on the drawing) (the one I developed first as I started playing) I start with a very comfortable C both lips are balanced, but as I go up in range the upper lip pushes itself further and further into the mouthpiece. I get a very nice sounding G and a beautiful C within the pentagram, but as I star to go higher it all falls apart making it next to impossible to move beyond G above the staff.

The second embouchure (right (bottom) on the drawing) developed form trying to play above G, and what happened is that if instead of pushing on the upper lip I maintain a very firm lower lip, one that even feels to protrude slightly forward then all my notes from B (within the pentagram) to high C and a little beyond become almost effortless and are controlled by the speed of the air coming from the lungs with little interference from the lips.

The problem with this second embouchure is that playing the range between D and A within the staff is almost impossible. I cannot seem to get a good sound at all, the lips will not vibrate at the right frequency. Playing bellow the staff is ok though.

So I have to incompatible embouchures that I would love to fuse into one that is effective throughout the whole range.

I have tried to do a sort of parallel lip for low C, slight upper lip push for G, pull back for C again and keep it from there but the transitions are not smooth at all.

If I just "let it be" it defaults to the first embouchure and everything sound beautiful as long as I am playing bellow F (which is extremely limiting and frustrating).

Has anybody here had a similar struggle? How did you manage to get it to work?

Thank you in advance for your helpful advice.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjChFM8WsAAriBn?format=jpg&name=large
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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Joined: 15 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: instructor Reply with quote

I started playing seven years ago. Luckily I had excellent instructors. What has your instructor suggested to you to improve your embrochure?
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royjohn
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
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Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your second embouchure sounds like the one you need to use. Try moving the mpc around using more lower lip and even more upper lip to see what works best for you. Also see if you can become aware of your "pivot" or mouthpiece movement with each setting. If you go up to ascend, try going down instead and vice versa. Try using a movement that goes a little right or left as you pivot up and down. One or more of these variations may prove to work for getting your lower (or middle?) register with more or less the same embouchure you are using for the high register.

Would be interested to hear whether any of this tells you anything.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
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Bflatman
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your questions are fundamental and exceptionally important to your development as a player.

Like owning a car and wanting to drive it fast but the car is wobbling around on the road and wont go over 50 miles an hour.

You dont go down the local bar where your mates and some mechanics hang out and ask them what is wrong with your car based on your description alone.

You take it instead to a garage to a specialist who can look at it and use diagnostic techniques and equipment on it.

There are many fine players and fine teachers in here who can act like doctors on many topics, but a doctor once told me that it is impossible to make a diagnosis over the phone.

You might get lucky and find a talented teacher in here who can solve your problem by a stroke of genius but to do that he depends totally on the quality and accuracy of the description you give to him of your setup and your symptoms.

If you get that even slightly wrong he gets the diagnosis wrong

This is a case for diagnosis in person and not remote diagnosis.

Consult a teacher.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might get some helpful information here (a file I wrote) -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.docx

The most important thing to remember is that playing is a 'skill' and not a muscle contest.

And if you can find a teacher (live or online) who can explain or demonstrate the skill techniques, that would be a big help.

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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verde75
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Joined: 28 Sep 2020
Posts: 4
Location: Monterrey México

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:46 am    Post subject: On the subject of teachers. Reply with quote

I have had 4 teachers so far, all very good players and in general considered to be good educators.

The first one was not very helpful in terms of technique teaching, his approach was something like "blow and if it makes a sound that's it". While working with him I developed the first type embouchure.

The 2nd teacher was just a very brief interaction due to him moving away. Not much knowledge was exchanged. He was a firm supporter of the pencil technique.

I have discussed the issue with both my 3rd and 4th teachers but they do not seem to relate to it. They both started playing very young and their embouchures seemed to develop naturally and without effort, so they could not offer any insights to my issue. They have grown a little frustrated (as I have too) with my apparent lack of progress. The 4th teacher was all about "blowing as if through a straw" as the be all end all of all trumpet ailments.

I have worked independently towards making the second type of embouchure the default embouchure but I do not know if that is the correct path to embrace, I am hesitant in my ignorance even if I heard a great trumpet player once say "actually only you can teach yourself how to play the trumpet" (meaning that in the feedback loop between sound and interaction with the instrument only the player has all the info).

I would love to find a teacher (be it local or remote) who has seen something like this before or experienced it him/herself so that we could work towards solving this particular issue, or find someone who struggled with something similar so that he/she could point me in the right direction.

In the mean time I just keep on working on finger dexterity, rhythm awareness, practicing scales, etc. but it feels like building on top of the wrong foundation.
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pepperdean
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Joined: 10 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The most important thing to remember is that playing is a 'skill' and not a muscle contest."

Great line, Jay!

Alan
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello verde,
have an online lesson with Bobby Shew
Suerte !
saludos
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: On the subject of teachers. Reply with quote

verde75 wrote:
I have had 4 teachers so far, all very good players and in general considered to be good educators.

The first one was not very helpful in terms of technique teaching, his approach was something like "blow and if it makes a sound that's it". While working with him I developed the first type embouchure.

The 2nd teacher was just a very brief interaction due to him moving away. Not much knowledge was exchanged. He was a firm supporter of the pencil technique.

I have discussed the issue with both my 3rd and 4th teachers but they do not seem to relate to it. They both started playing very young and their embouchures seemed to develop naturally and without effort, so they could not offer any insights to my issue. They have grown a little frustrated (as I have too) with my apparent lack of progress. The 4th teacher was all about "blowing as if through a straw" as the be all end all of all trumpet ailments.

I have worked independently towards making the second type of embouchure the default embouchure but I do not know if that is the correct path to embrace, I am hesitant in my ignorance even if I heard a great trumpet player once say "actually only you can teach yourself how to play the trumpet" (meaning that in the feedback loop between sound and interaction with the instrument only the player has all the info).

I would love to find a teacher (be it local or remote) who has seen something like this before or experienced it him/herself so that we could work towards solving this particular issue, or find someone who struggled with something similar so that he/she could point me in the right direction.

In the mean time I just keep on working on finger dexterity, rhythm awareness, practicing scales, etc. but it feels like building on top of the wrong foundation.


Sounds to me like you have not had very good luck with teachers, especially the first one. Have you considered virtual lessons (via Skype, Zoom, etc.) if there are no qualified teachers in your area? Asking these questions here is perfectly fine, but it sounds to me as if you NEED a good teacher.

Brad
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Dkjcliff
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Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

verde75,

I'll share my personal experience since, from your description and drawings, I have been dealing with an almost identical issue for months. I started my most recent comeback around March. Determined to improve my range, which used to top out around high D, I started playing with different setups. I found that the second setup allows me to get up to a solid high G (fourth ledger line above the staff) and even the occasional squeaky double C. But I've had a difficult time using that lower jaw forward setup between C in the staff and G on top of the staff. And I also had trouble articulating cleanly anywhere above the staff.

So I'm now starting to integrate elements of that setup in my traditional setup (which is like your other setup with the protruding upper lip). I make a conscious effort to keep my mouthpiece resting more on my lower lip and keep the lower jaw forward. I still let my upper lip move forward a bit as I ascend. However, I don't allow it to do it nearly as much as I used to and I try to focus on keeping it more under control rather than just letting the upper lip flap in the breeze. I also try to resist applying pressure on the upper lip as much as possible. And I focus on the feeling of my lips moving as I ascend and the feeling of them buzzing in the mouthpiece. I also try to blow more toward my bottom lip (or at least that's the way it feels) than blowing down across the back of my upper lip (which is how it used to feel).

As for the difficulty between D and A, it may be because your jaw position is too high and/or you're using a bit too much pressure. I've found both of these things were causing me problems. However, I still have not found a way to use that high note setup successfully in that range. I don't know what it is about the C/D-G/A that makes it challenging. So, as described, I'm focusing on trying to incorporate elements of that setup into my traditional setup to improve my range with that set up, as well as on learning to more naturally transition when I need to go into the extreme (for me) register. I'm hopeful that one day the two setups will meld into one embouchure I can use across the range of the horn. We shall see.

Also, have you tried using a pucker as you ascend on your first setup? That has helped me, but you need to be careful not to overdo it. The pucker should be pretty slight. Building strength through quiet long tones and judicious use of the pencil exercise also seems to have helped me.

That's my 2 cents based on my personal experience. Hope it helps.
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verde75
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Joined: 28 Sep 2020
Posts: 4
Location: Monterrey México

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dkjcliff wrote:
verde75,

I'll share my personal experience since, from your description and drawings, I have been dealing with an almost identical issue for months. I started my most recent comeback around March. Determined to improve my range, which used to top out around high D, I started playing with different setups. I found that the second setup allows me to get up to a solid high G (fourth ledger line above the staff) and even the occasional squeaky double C. But I've had a difficult time using that lower jaw forward setup between C in the staff and G on top of the staff. And I also had trouble articulating cleanly anywhere above the staff.

So I'm now starting to integrate elements of that setup in my traditional setup (which is like your other setup with the protruding upper lip). I make a conscious effort to keep my mouthpiece resting more on my lower lip and keep the lower jaw forward. I still let my upper lip move forward a bit as I ascend. However, I don't allow it to do it nearly as much as I used to and I try to focus on keeping it more under control rather than just letting the upper lip flap in the breeze. I also try to resist applying pressure on the upper lip as much as possible. And I focus on the feeling of my lips moving as I ascend and the feeling of them buzzing in the mouthpiece. I also try to blow more toward my bottom lip (or at least that's the way it feels) than blowing down across the back of my upper lip (which is how it used to feel).

As for the difficulty between D and A, it may be because your jaw position is too high and/or you're using a bit too much pressure. I've found both of these things were causing me problems. However, I still have not found a way to use that high note setup successfully in that range. I don't know what it is about the C/D-G/A that makes it challenging. So, as described, I'm focusing on trying to incorporate elements of that setup into my traditional setup to improve my range with that set up, as well as on learning to more naturally transition when I need to go into the extreme (for me) register. I'm hopeful that one day the two setups will meld into one embouchure I can use across the range of the horn. We shall see.

Also, have you tried using a pucker as you ascend on your first setup? That has helped me, but you need to be careful not to overdo it. The pucker should be pretty slight. Building strength through quiet long tones and judicious use of the pencil exercise also seems to have helped me.

That's my 2 cents based on my personal experience. Hope it helps.


This sounds extremely close to what I am experiencing and somehow instinctively I feel that I am also trying to build a continuum that exploits all the effective parts of different "feels" but haven't managed to do so yet. The blowing into the lower jaw is a very effective way to describe what I also try to do.

Have you consulted a teacher about it? Do you have any outside info on it?

Cheers and thank you for letting me know that at least I am not alone in this.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have certainly had poor experience with the teachers you describe. They appear to not be educators at all.

From what you write, my suggestion is to stop trying to analyse all of this, and get help from a knowledgeable teacher. I suspect on line is the way to go.

Above all, you will need someone who will assist you in building up a positive routine to follow to allow your playing to grow and develop. In the end, it will be much more like the blow and make it sound like XXXX, with little to no deep thought. Then you’ll be on the way to playing well.

Cheers

Andy
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Dkjcliff
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Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

verde75 wrote:
Dkjcliff wrote:
verde75,

I'll share my personal experience since, from your description and drawings, I have been dealing with an almost identical issue for months. I started my most recent comeback around March. Determined to improve my range, which used to top out around high D, I started playing with different setups. I found that the second setup allows me to get up to a solid high G (fourth ledger line above the staff) and even the occasional squeaky double C. But I've had a difficult time using that lower jaw forward setup between C in the staff and G on top of the staff. And I also had trouble articulating cleanly anywhere above the staff.

So I'm now starting to integrate elements of that setup in my traditional setup (which is like your other setup with the protruding upper lip). I make a conscious effort to keep my mouthpiece resting more on my lower lip and keep the lower jaw forward. I still let my upper lip move forward a bit as I ascend. However, I don't allow it to do it nearly as much as I used to and I try to focus on keeping it more under control rather than just letting the upper lip flap in the breeze. I also try to resist applying pressure on the upper lip as much as possible. And I focus on the feeling of my lips moving as I ascend and the feeling of them buzzing in the mouthpiece. I also try to blow more toward my bottom lip (or at least that's the way it feels) than blowing down across the back of my upper lip (which is how it used to feel).

As for the difficulty between D and A, it may be because your jaw position is too high and/or you're using a bit too much pressure. I've found both of these things were causing me problems. However, I still have not found a way to use that high note setup successfully in that range. I don't know what it is about the C/D-G/A that makes it challenging. So, as described, I'm focusing on trying to incorporate elements of that setup into my traditional setup to improve my range with that set up, as well as on learning to more naturally transition when I need to go into the extreme (for me) register. I'm hopeful that one day the two setups will meld into one embouchure I can use across the range of the horn. We shall see.

Also, have you tried using a pucker as you ascend on your first setup? That has helped me, but you need to be careful not to overdo it. The pucker should be pretty slight. Building strength through quiet long tones and judicious use of the pencil exercise also seems to have helped me.

That's my 2 cents based on my personal experience. Hope it helps.


This sounds extremely close to what I am experiencing and somehow instinctively I feel that I am also trying to build a continuum that exploits all the effective parts of different "feels" but haven't managed to do so yet. The blowing into the lower jaw is a very effective way to describe what I also try to do.

Have you consulted a teacher about it? Do you have any outside info on it?

Cheers and thank you for letting me know that at least I am not alone in this.


I haven't consulted a teacher since my comeback. My perspective comes from studying different techniques online, experimenting, and self-analysis. And, as I'm sure you know, what works for me may not work for you. My advice is not to be afraid of trying different techniques/set-ups/feels, as long as you have the time. Nothing is irreversible as long as you're not damaging yourself. Although of course if you're performing regularly, you don't have the luxury of taking weeks to reverse a technique that turned out wasn't right for you. But I'm not in that position.

Since my comeback in March I have improved in every facet of my playing through experimentation and critical self-analysis. I've become a better player than I was after years of practice and study with well-known teachers when I was a teen.

One other thought based on my experience--I found that I could play a very shallow mouthpiece with the lower jaw forward setup in the high register. But it became very difficult for me to control in the mid and lower registers. And my flexibility was bad. I still get the biggest high G's on my shallow mouthpiece, but I'm able to do a lot more across the instrument with a slightly deeper cup. So if you're playing a very shallow piece, you could try going a little deeper to see if it helps.
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