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Jaw04
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 Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:50 pm Post subject: So if you're stuck on a G above high C... |
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I have been having very little time practicing or performing the trumpet lately. I've been teaching fulltime as well as taking classes online. When I get a chance to play, I have a range up to G above high C that at times is a bit pinched and thin, and other times sings like Celine Dion at a variety of dynamics from soft to pretty decently full and loud. Either way, it tops off at G, range-wise. I've hit some A flats and As, B flats, and Bs, but not with a tone that would be worth committing to a recording, and they've been few and far between. This is how my range has been for a while whether I practiced a lot or very little.
If you've been in my shoes, what was the secret to getting past that? More consistent practice? Practicing like, a crazy amount, or just a sensible amount but tweaking things? Changing some kind of concept? I know there's no quick solutions but I just want to throw that question to the universe and ponder it in my attempt to expand my range. |
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rmch
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Brad Goode likes to say that the "squeaks of today are the notes of tomorrow." Keep slowly tinkering with it, and be analytical about it: when something doesn't work, try changing one variable (diaphragm compression, engagement of embouchure muscles, tongue compression, mouthpiece pressure, maybe different mouthpiece setup, louder, softer, tongued, slurred, etc.) and see if that makes a difference. Then, when something does work, remember what you did and what it felt like. For me, a few things have helped me start unlocking that register in the past couple years: replacing throat tension with tongue compression, switching to small bore horns, a little leadpipe buzzing & skeleton mouthpiece buzzing, and very soft lip slurs and chromatic scales. The buzzing and the very soft slurs didn't make my chops "stronger" or anything, they helped me figure out how to use my body correctly in order to compress the air enough. I'm not a master of a of that register of the horn yet, but these efforts have led to some fun moments on gigs where you take a phrase up on octave and the whole band is surprised and we all giggle about it.
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:10 am Post subject: Re: So if you're stuck on a G above high C... |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | I have been having very little time practicing or performing the trumpet lately. I've been teaching fulltime as well as taking classes online. When I get a chance to play, I have a range up to G above high C that at times is a bit pinched and thin, and other times sings like Celine Dion at a variety of dynamics from soft to pretty decently full and loud. Either way, it tops off at G, range-wise. I've hit some A flats and As, B flats, and Bs, but not with a tone that would be worth committing to a recording, and they've been few and far between. This is how my range has been for a while whether I practiced a lot or very little.
If you've been in my shoes, what was the secret to getting past that? More consistent practice? Practicing like, a crazy amount, or just a sensible amount but tweaking things? Changing some kind of concept? I know there's no quick solutions but I just want to throw that question to the universe and ponder it in my attempt to expand my range. |
This is a very common trait among those trumpet (players) who can play the High G. I have a few questions.
Do you generally "buzz downwards"? Like does the air flow down when you buzz? And,
Do you need lots of arm pressure to hit notes above high E flat?
Is soft playing above High C difficult to impossible?
Okay I'm going to post this now just so my android doesn't crash. Later will offer some thoughts regardless of your response. Gracias.
Part 2
Because if you answered "yes" to all three I've got some bad news for ya. You're a typical receded jaw trumpet player who cuts off at G. There's usually no cure for this cut-off point except an embouchure change.
I'm playing the Stevens-Costello system now & there is no cut-off point. I do have some tips on helping your existing range. However in the same time it takes to adapt these ideas you could learn the Stevens-Costello system.
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Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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bike&ed
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| So if you look at a chart of the harmonic series on a Bb trumpet, the G above high C is the highest pitch that the instrument is designed to naturally resonate. Everything above that has to be produced purely through the player's ability to control their embouchure/air/etc. and use the trumpet merely as an 'amplifier.' This is not easy by any means, most of us work at it for our whole lives, with varying degrees of success. |
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deleted_user_02066fd
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Receded jaw players can indeed play well above high g. Mark Zauss is about as receded jaw as you will see, There's a video floating around of him doing Chase's Get It On. He plays all the trumpet parts and at one point is well above double c. Tony Kadleck is another good example. Patrick Hession, Maynard's last lead player is a down streamer as well. Pat bends his mouthpiece. He played one of the toughest lead books known to man.
I don't think these individuals would play nearly as well on a Steven's setup. It's not for everyone. If it works for you as it seems to work for Lionel from his posts then more power to you.
I've met and heard Roy Stevens play and he had range up the wazoo. He was a very fine trumpeter and a character as well. Swore like a long shore man but an extremely nice guy. Don Ellis and Roy Roman were students of Roy's. Don had a very pronounced, protruding lower jaw. Perfect for the Stevens system. I'm pretty sure Don worked a bit with Cat Anderson as well, Roy Roman I don't know much about. I've heard a few videos and truthfully I wasn't that impressed.
Last edited by deleted_user_02066fd on Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| bike&ed wrote: | | So if you look at a chart of the harmonic series on a Bb trumpet, the G above high C is the highest pitch that the instrument is designed to naturally resonate. ... |
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I'd appreciate a more detailed explanation of why higher frequencies would not resonate.
Is there an online website that addresses the issue?
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Lionel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Mark doesn't fit my definition of a receded jaw embouchure type. Horn angle alone isn't indicative of the forward or receded jaw embouchure condition. He certainly doesn't sound like one. Dental structure can play a role.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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bike&ed
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I can't really answer a negative, but just the most basic Wikipedia chart shows how the series breaks down into 'mostly' badly out of tune half steps beyond G above high C (transpose the chart up 2 octaves as written for our equivalents). I do find it fascinating that this chart shows DHC as being a naturally in-tune pitch, but even the most successful extreme range players sometimes seem to have a lot of trouble with getting it in tune (there's plenty of videos on YT of Maynard/Cat/etc etc etc having at least temporary issues with DHC pitch). There must be a lot more things involved with resonating extreme pitches, in addition to the human effort challenges...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) |
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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bike&ed wrote: | | I can't really answer a negative, but just the most basic Wikipedia chart shows how the series breaks down into 'mostly' badly out of tune half steps beyond G above high C ... |
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I think that what you mean is that the frequencies of the the various valve combinations and their harmonics do not align very well with the note pitches trying to be played.
But that doesn't mean that pitches above 'G above C' don't resonate, only that they might not be in tune with the desired note pitch.
The concern is the amount of effort and skill needed to manipulate those high pitches into the desired notes.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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bike&ed
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | bike&ed wrote: | | I can't really answer a negative, but just the most basic Wikipedia chart shows how the series breaks down into 'mostly' badly out of tune half steps beyond G above high C ... |
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I think that what you mean is that the frequencies of the the various valve combinations and their harmonics do not align very well with the note pitches trying to be played.
But that doesn't mean that pitches above 'G above C' don't resonate, only that they might not be in tune with the desired note pitch.
The concern is the amount of effort and skill needed to manipulate those high pitches into the desired notes.
Jay |
Basically yes, thus the G above high C is (generally) the last/highest actual 'note' that a Bb trumpet 'wants' to produce. (At least in Western chromatic terms, i.e. a quarter tone vibratory sound doesn't really count as a 'note' unless/until it can be adjusted/forced to match the chromatic pitch above or below it. Therefore we don't call a squeak from a door hinge a 'note' even though it may produce sounds/'pitches' in the double/triple registers.) Combined with the physical demands, we all know the extreme stuff requires exceptional dedication, and even then many/most of us never truly master it. |
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Jaw04
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Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 900
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: So if you're stuck on a G above high C... |
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| Lionel wrote: | | Jaw04 wrote: | I have been having very little time practicing or performing the trumpet lately. I've been teaching fulltime as well as taking classes online. When I get a chance to play, I have a range up to G above high C that at times is a bit pinched and thin, and other times sings like Celine Dion at a variety of dynamics from soft to pretty decently full and loud. Either way, it tops off at G, range-wise. I've hit some A flats and As, B flats, and Bs, but not with a tone that would be worth committing to a recording, and they've been few and far between. This is how my range has been for a while whether I practiced a lot or very little.
If you've been in my shoes, what was the secret to getting past that? More consistent practice? Practicing like, a crazy amount, or just a sensible amount but tweaking things? Changing some kind of concept? I know there's no quick solutions but I just want to throw that question to the universe and ponder it in my attempt to expand my range. |
This is a very common trait among those trumpet (players) who can play the High G. I have a few questions.
Do you generally "buzz downwards"? Like does the air flow down when you buzz? And,
Do you need lots of arm pressure to hit notes above high E flat?
Is soft playing above High C difficult to impossible?
Okay I'm going to post this now just so my android doesn't crash. Later will offer some thoughts regardless of your response. Gracias.
Part 2
Because if you answered "yes" to all three I've got some bad news for ya. You're a typical receded jaw trumpet player who cuts off at G. There's usually no cure for this cut-off point except an embouchure change.
I'm playing the Stevens-Costello system now & there is no cut-off point. I do have some tips on helping your existing range. However in the same time it takes to adapt these ideas you could learn the Stevens-Costello system. |
I don't use a lot of pressure to play high when I'm fresh and practicing in a good environment. I can play very soft above High C. When I'm playing high I feel like my air stream is aimed high. |
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bike&ed
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Lionel, seriously man, you need to make a recording or video demonstration. Maybe make 10 or 20 of the exact same thing, and then just pick your favorite. Sure a lot of people will still nitpick it to death (this is the interwebs after all), but at least please show us the dubbas! |
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Jaw04
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Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 900
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bike&ed wrote: | | So if you look at a chart of the harmonic series on a Bb trumpet, the G above high C is the highest pitch that the instrument is designed to naturally resonate. Everything above that has to be produced purely through the player's ability to control their embouchure/air/etc. and use the trumpet merely as an 'amplifier.' This is not easy by any means, most of us work at it for our whole lives, with varying degrees of success. |
I have also heard Bobby Shew say that in a video. I wonder what I need to do to make that adjustment past the G. It's probably different for each player. |
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SteveDurand
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
I'd appreciate a more detailed explanation of why higher frequencies would not resonate.
Is there an online website that addresses the issue?
Jay |
Jay,
Here is a site that I like for basic brass instrument physics.
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html
The issue with playing any notes above about a D over high C is that the standing wave collapses at approximately 1,200 Hz. This is around an E over high C.
When people talk about resonance they are talking about the nodes of the standing wave and the notes that they correspond to. This is what makes the "slots" for those notes. However, due to the breakdown of the standing wave, there are really no slots beyond about a D. Above that point you are not getting any help out of the instrument and it is really just working as a megaphone to project your lip vibration. So, in order to play those higher notes you have to have an embouchure that will allow your lips to vibrate at those higher frequencies without the impedance of the instrument to help you.
While there are charts that indicate resonances above that level. They are just theoretical. They don't exist in the real world.
Steve |
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SteveDurand
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: So if you're stuck on a G above high C... |
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| Jaw04 wrote: |
If you've been in my shoes, what was the secret to getting past that? More consistent practice? Practicing like, a crazy amount, or just a sensible amount but tweaking things? Changing some kind of concept? I know there's no quick solutions but I just want to throw that question to the universe and ponder it in my attempt to expand my range. |
Jaw04,
I was in that situation except that my top note was a D over high C. That was my sticking point for 45 years. See my post to Jay Kosta about why it gets hard to play high notes beyond that point. For most people the cutoff is around a D. If you can play a decent G then you are ahead of about 99% of people.
I tried many approaches to improve my high register and what finally worked was the Costello-Stevens method that Lionel mentioned. If you can get the knack of it it makes it frightfully easy to play those high notes.
However, for me, I cannot get that setting to work for notes below a high C. so I have to do a shift in order to play the upper register.
As an interesting development, along with practicing the Costello-Stevens approach, my range on my "normal" setting has gradually increased also. About a month ago I started doing Caruso exercises and I am now a the point where I can play halfway decent Double Cs with my "normal" setting.
Since you are already able to squeak out those higher notes. I think that maybe trying Caruso stuff would help you strengthen that.
Steve |
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Jaw04
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Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 900
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: So if you're stuck on a G above high C... |
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| SteveDurand wrote: |
Jaw04,
I was in that situation except that my top note was a D over high C. That was my sticking point for 45 years. See my post to Jay Kosta about why it gets hard to play high notes beyond that point. For most people the cutoff is around a D. If you can play a decent G then you are ahead of about 99% of people.
I tried many approaches to improve my high register and what finally worked was the Costello-Stevens method that Lionel mentioned. If you can get the knack of it it makes it frightfully easy to play those high notes.
However, for me, I cannot get that setting to work for notes below a high C. so I have to do a shift in order to play the upper register.
As an interesting development, along with practicing the Costello-Stevens approach, my range on my "normal" setting has gradually increased also. About a month ago I started doing Caruso exercises and I am now a the point where I can play halfway decent Double Cs with my "normal" setting.
Since you are already able to squeak out those higher notes. I think that maybe trying Caruso stuff would help you strengthen that.
Steve |
Thanks for the tip. I used to do Caruso, and will revisit it.
If I think about what my goals are, it's probably being able to play those Fs and Gs with an awesome sound. I don't really care about being able to play double C, but I figure if I can get up there I will be able to do more with the upper register that is more accessible and commonly utilized in music. I sometimes hate the way I sound on F and above.
I think from my experience, D over high C is how high ANYONE can get on the trumpet. Meaning, you can get up to a high D, even if your mechanics are bad, with practice and determination. That's what I have observed in my students.I used to be stuck on a D/Eb. After figuring some things out I was able to expand my range. I think you need to have pretty good mechanics to play above D. However, I am not sure I am in the 99th percentile. I have had a few students and many colleagues that can play as high or higher than me. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| SteveDurand wrote: | ...
Here is a site that I like for basic brass instrument physics.
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html
The issue with playing any notes above about a D over high C is that the standing wave collapses at approximately 1,200 Hz. This is around an E over high C. ...
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Thanks for the link - it looks like a good site.
The relevant discussion about high note resonance decreases seems to be at -
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#high
My estimate is that the 'radius of bell curvature' on a typical trumpet is about 1 foot, and that corresponds to resonance decrease beginning just above trumpet high C.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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bike&ed
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| This is a really great discussion with superb information in the links, thanks to all for helping to achieve positive and civil community discourse! |
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area51recording
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Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 480
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah.....I would kill or die to be stuck on a G above High C..... |
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Croquethed
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
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Location: Oakville, CT
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| area51recording wrote: | | Yeah.....I would kill or die to be stuck on a G above High C..... |
I console myself by reading about the screamers who have a hard time playing below A in the staff. |
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