So if you're stuck on a G above high C...

bach_again · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject:

Here's a few things that might help you.

A Jim Pandolfi-ism:

It's the ring in the sound that makes your chops work great, and ITS NOT the chops working great that puts the ring in the sound. You know what puts the ring in the sound? WILLPOWER.

If you can't hear the ring in the low and middle register (whether you are playing or listening) you need to address that. Learn hown to listen more deeply.

Sometimes people play gear that gets in the way of their sound production - too small and too large. Jens has a superb article about this.

Work on octave glissandi drills at pp. Roger showed me this exericse which Bobby showed him. I could detail this but I would rather you pay either of them for a lesson, afterall it is what started to fix my range issues.

Don't shovel air at high notes unless you wanna sound awful for 15 mins.

Don't obsess about the upper register. Obsess about making music and the best sound you possibly can. It is easy to get things ass about face. What are you paid to do and what makes you happy to do? If you are playing for enjoyment and you wanna play high notes, well, it is more fun if it sounds good and feels good. It shouldn't feel all that hard. It isn't easy but it isn't half as hard as most people think. If it is a vocation, work on reading, sound, inner part playing, tuning etc... if there's high G's they will hire someone who has that all night, and if you want that to be your job put the sound first, and truly believe you can do it. Back off the air, focus on resonance like Jim Manley says. Do his leadpipe exercises - they are on the Stomvi USA youtube.

There's so much BS out there, you gotta find what works for you, and fundamentally if it sounds bad nobody wants to hear it so focus on the sound. Get the ring in the sound. Play from the taper zone. Make music. That's what Maynard taught - high notes ought to be an extension of our music making, not notes that you HIT.

I reckon a lot of people could back off in some regard - air, pressure, tension, doubt and other mental blocks etc...

Mayn taught people to transpose melodies by ST maintaining the beautiful sound in every key. Do this. Rest often.

I find picc is a nice horn to learn how to back off on, and recently - french horn. You can't press and hope for anything remotely musical on those. I can cover an obscene regiser on one, and I barely press. I don't play tricks etc... I just play to the resonance, and it feels easy despite having a mpc deep enough to do shots from.

Stay positive too!! If I can figure out some of this stuff, anyone can.

Best,
Mike
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Jaw04 · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:25 pm Post subject:

bach_again · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:48 pm Post subject:

Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:53 am Post subject:

I just read all of the posts on this topic because I personally went through this and have had friends and students go through it too.

I started with Claude Gordon in 1984 and we changed several things like my embouchure to ⅔ on my top lip (from being about ¼ top lip), K Tongue Modified single tonguing, breathing and posture (from trying to "breath from my stomach"). Initially, I went from playing an ok high D and squeeking a High F to barely being able to play a G at the top of the staff for a month or two and then a High C after 3 months and within 9 months playing a High F that was easier than I could believe. At about 9 months I could do my range studies in Systematic Approach to Double High C and higher. For a few of the studies I got above Triple C.

However, when I went to college at California State University Northridge two years later I know that I too was solid to a High G but frustrated about Ab and above. I could nail a G above High C with no problem. I played my range studies above Double High C but didn't feel proud to play any charts that had a Double A in them. For me my Ab was either in tune with a small sound or slightly flat with a big sound. Neither was usable.

It all changed one morning when I was playing Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibility an hour before Jazz Band. I sort of mindlessly playing and all of a sudden thought it was weird that my High D in Colin 9 was literally as relaxed as a Low C. It was a new feeling. And, of course I tried to play a High E and the sound shut off on me. Something was changing.

I went to my lesson with Claude and we never talked about lip stuff. He would yell "Forget about your lip!" to students that I could hear in his waiting room. I was cautious to ask about what I felt. What had happened was I used to roll my bottom lip in. The Colin flexibility studies and similar things were always part of my practice routines with Claude. Claude noticed this but knew that the way to address it was through the practice routines that had a variety of exercises from different books. Later I took his pedagogy class and we went into more detail about dealing with students. Sometimes drawing attention to a problem like saying "don't do that" will make the student do it even more. Focusing on the correct things to do will retrain the good habits and make the bad habits recede.

Flexibility studies like Colin, Walter Smith, Earl Irons, Claude's Daily Trumpet Routines and other books are so vital to a daily routine. What they do is get you to connect the low, middle and high register together and thereby transform how you approach the horn. The byproduct of that is more ease and flexibility and that is usually what helps those notes open up more.

Also, once I graduated college and was living in an apartment alone things changed when Claude died. I had studied for ten years faithfully and knew how to complete the next logical things with various books for about a year. After that I remember being in my apartment alone in the day practicing and thinking: I might never play high notes like so and so or play this other skill like so and so but if I can just get a little better everyday and sound good at the normal "cash register" for doing gigs then I will be happy at whatever speed I progress.

At that point I felt more free because I didn't care how I compared to someone else as much. I felt like I always listened to my sound and was aware of that. I had a teacher before Claude named Charles Brady that was really one of the best trumpet players of all time. However, his lessons consisted mostly of trying to imitate his sound and musicality with no explanation of technique and how things work.

We all progress at different skills at different rates. My Ab finally sounded like a G and then the A did that too. For every trumpet player you can hear subtle differences in the sound at that point.

I had a friend in college that swore he couldn't play a Double High C. He could nail a C# and D and a B. Once he started studying with another Claude Gordon student and doing flexibility studies all of a sudden the C was there. This guy played so easily and wouldn't practice at all prior to this and would smoke pot and just play so easily. He was annoying. But, when he practiced a complete routine he became a better player.

Those notes will eventually come like other people have mentioned. However, they just don't magically happen without doing something to cause it to happen.

I don't think you will find any great high note players that didn't do some work for it. Arturo worked on it as did Harry Kim, Andrea Toffanelli, Real Matheu, Rashawn Ross, and even Wayne Bergeron. I remember playing and talking with Wayne before and he mentioned an early teacher that had him do lots of K tonguing and various other exercises. Wayne got the knack of high notes at an early age but it was the teacher that set him up with a foundation that caused him to use K tongue modified single tonguing and things that work correctly.

Now's the time to focus on personal practice so when gigs come back we won't be found lacking.

Jeff
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Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

delano · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:15 am Post subject:

High G (sometimes called double G) is quite high. There are not many players who have a real sound above that. I have heard a lot of double C's that are in fact whistle sounds.
And certainly there are no secrets except the ones Lionel has unfortunately only in words.
Not a secret but a probability: if you have talent for high notes, if you have your embouchure right, if you are a pro who plays every day several hours stage band or big band (lead)charts and if you have now a solid and loud high G, then you will develop in time a double high C.

soulfire · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 334 Location: NJ

Jaw04 · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:42 pm Post subject:

delano · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:07 am Post subject:

mr. Jaw 04, did you read my post before disagreeing? It's quite obvious that I am not talking about Wynton, Jon and some more. Second, if you read what I describe as a probability, it fits quite good the group of jazz players, commercial players and so on that you bring up to disagree with me.
And there is a difference between high and high:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcXcRkTCQLY&ab_channel=TheTrumpetProf

bike&ed · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837

Paul is a beast, one of the best players alive at present in my opinion, thanks for posting that!

PMonteiro · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:20 am Post subject:

Why does G always seem to be a sticking point for people in multiple octaves? Lots of young players/beginners have problems getting stuck at G on top of the staff. I was one of them when I started out. Fast forward to today, and now I'm stuck an octave higher at the G over high C wall.
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JayKosta · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:34 pm Post subject:

Jaw04 · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:24 pm Post subject:

delano · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:43 pm Post subject:

[quote="Jaw04"]

TrpPro · Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:00 am Post subject:

Hugh Anderson · Veteran Member Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 398

I hear extreme high players talk about practicing 3 hrs a day. Can you expect to get above ‘double g’ on an hour a day?

Jaw04 · Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: High g

wilder · Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: High g

Shaft · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 984

Can you tell where and why the sound stops?

A place where something changed versus
the last note that felt good and resonant?

The G above high C cutoff has been noticed
by many players and teachers and typically
the story goes that there is only so far things
can go once tension has disrupted technique
of sound production.

Compression is talked about and how a player
makes it. Compression is different than the
creeping tension we have all experienced.

A few types of ways to compress are
-lip to lip
-bringing in the abs
-tongue arch

If we are resorting to mouthpiece pressure
it can sometimes be a trick to replace it w/
a different type of compression.

Setting my lips for a G above the staff helped
a lot. Doing it before every phrase in practice.
Its only 1 octave of compressing to go to G above C
Its two octaves of relaxing down to G under the staff.

Maybe this helps. There is always something we can learn.
Good luck