It’s the musician: Philosophizing out loud

[Brad361]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[Bflatman]

We are constantly at the crossroads.

The choice is easy path or hard path.

The easy path gives results quicker but there are fewer skills to learn.

The hard path has more skills to learn but takes longer.

Do we want earlier success or do we want greater skills and later success.

It is not choosing the hard path simply to make things more difficult if it were I would refuse it but it is choosing a path with greater skills to learn.

The only question is what is the goal of our practice and how do we want to get there.

I could be wrong in my choices and you could be right in yours we will only know this in 10 or 20 years.

In the words of Paul Anka "through it all, when there was doubt, I ate it up and spit it out"

We all do it our way.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[thecoast]

[Brad361]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[blbaumgarn]

Lots of great comments here. And, yes, I agree with Keaulani, too, as we are all gear heads to an extant. The arrow analogy is on point. Much of learning or mastering aspects of trumpet playing involves methodology. If the Indian recognized that his arrow wood wasn't as good as the last batch he had, he still followed the method of making it exactly to make the arrow as near perfect as he could. Practice is like that. We read examples of people seeking advice every day in here. They seek it on every topic from valve oil, to mpcs. to how to blow air their their horn. The other truth is that some trumpets are more primitive than others. They don't work so well for the vast majority of players. The Indian who went hunting with his primitive long bow, wooden arrows, and hand fletched arrows needed to be precise making his tools so when he got his shot it would work. He isn't like the modern archer using a compound bow that can manage 340ft/sec. when launched. The older horns will work, too, and in the right hands play beautifully. The modern top line horns make it more possible to sound good up front, but they don't ever replace the methodology and practice to make sure you can close the deal. when you play, as a soloist or in a group.
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush

[SMrtn]

Get the best horn you can afford, as in, THE best you can afford. Nothing worse than trying to learn on crappy gear, and probably nothing is more discouraging for new players. Then, when you have that horn, get on with practice .... and stuff.

Silly thread really. So called gear-heads exist in every field of endeavor - photography, saxophone...etc. I reckon if you can afford it, then you should buy it. Fill your practice room with horns and cameras and mouthpieces if you like.

[delano]

[Bflatman]

Arturo Sandoval in this video at 1.01.35 said it is the indian not the arrow. He also said any horn is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sumGYjIQMAY

He had asked for any horn to be provided for him to play on and he asked for a chinese horn of the lowest quality to prove that equipment does not matter.

I defer to mr Sandoval on this matter.

Yes pro horns do sound differently than cheap horns there is no doubt of that but if a player of the stature of Arturo Sandoval says that it is the player not the instrument then that is good enough for me.

If you want to build skills you need to practice the difficult things and not just the easy things.

It is easy to sound beautiful on an instrument that makes anyone sound beautiful but if you cannot sound beautiful on any horn at all no matter how good or bad are you really as accomplished as you think you are.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[OldSchoolEuph]

By all means - convince as many as you can out there (who lack Sandoval's chops as does almost every one of us) to play on something other than what works best .

Leaves more gigs for the smart ones who seek every advantage.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[kehaulani]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[delano]

[Bflatman]

This is a massive can of worms and the real answer is - it depends.

Mr delano is of course totally correct

You cannot take a ford edsel to the indy 500 and have a hope in heck of placing no matter how fabulous you are as a driver.

A professional needs a professional horn or at least one that delivers the performance he or she needs.

Having said that, I believe that the skills that enable a player to play well on a lower quality instrument are valuable and migratable to all instruments they play to some degree.

Players risk selling themselves short by entirely abandoning lower quality equipment and never playing on it.

I find that the skills needed to perform well on poor equipment seems to help me perform well on better equipment.

I play on a pro instrument as my daily player. It makes sense to do this.

I also play on student instruments and I am complemented on my playing when I do.

Anecdotally, I was playing on a student instrument and making money playing on it and being complemented on my tone. A professional player asked to play my instrument, he was playing on a Bach Strad at the time, I handed it over.

He played a few notes then threw it back in disgust saying it was a worthless instrument for beginners and claimed it was almost unplayable.

This professional player could not play this instrument well, that had sounded just fine when I had played it.

Why was he unable to play this instrument well.

Much later I handed a poor quality instrument that I was playing well on, to a professional player who asked if he could play it and he loved it and blew up a storm.

One pro rejected a student horn the other loved a student horn.

It is the player not the horn.

I can play any instrument and sound good on it, that does not mean I am a better player than those who cannot it simply means my skillset is different to some other players skillsets.

The gear does not matter as much as people think if you have the skills and everyone on this site is capable of this. If you practice.

The best gear gives the best tone and the best blow, but you dont have to be locked into only one horn and only one mouthpiece.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[Trumpetingbynurture]

There are really only two things that an instrument matters for.
Sound and intonation.
An instrument that is setup to naturally respond the way you hear the sound in your mind will mean you are able to be more at ease with the instrument.
An out of tune instrument is a significant issue that will introduce lots of 'fight' as you try to play. Again, an in tune instrument will make you more at ease.

Assuming no mechanical issues if you can get the sound you want with good intonation from a $200 instrument, then you're done.

Pros spend lots of money to improve one or both of those two criteria.
A pro doesn't spend money thinking the instrument will give them the ability to play something they can't.
If you're fighting the instrument for the sound you want or for intonation then you need a different instrument. That's where an instrument can limit you. If you're having some other problem, then it's probably a sound problem by another name.

If you're a beginner or intermediate player, however, you will still sound bad and be out of tune on the most expensive trumpet though. It's like, how many people need to be able to go 0 to 60 in 3 seconds? Virtually no one. If you're a professional racer though, you're not going to try and win races in a hummer. Same for trumpets.
The car itself doesn't determine whether you are a good driver. The car just sets limits on how much you are able to compete. If you're a bad driver, a faster car won't help. If you're a good driver, a slower car wont make you a bad driver. If everyone was competing with the same cars it'd still be obvious you're a good driver. But if people who are also good drivers are using much better cars than you, you will likely lose the race.


So it both matters and doesn't matter. It's a paradox

[drboogenbroom]

We spend 90% of our time worrying about things that make a 10% difference.
_________________
By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision.

Bruno Walter

[delano]

I think that I agree wit Bflatman here above in the big lines. There is a lot to do about pro horns and student horns. Sound and intonation, yes, but also the quality of the mechanics. It makes a big difference whether an instrument is used a few times a week or every day for long hours.
An example: I owned some time ago a like new older YCR2310, the one with the 0.463 bore. This is a student horn but it played fabulous with great intonation and sound. So it could be considered a pro horn in some aspects. But the mechanics were not on par, the horn's mechanics felt cheap. The valves, though working nice were quite clunky and a little stiff. The third valve slide was not smooth to operate and very light constructed. I could imagine that by very intensive use you could have technical problems with slides and valves.
But still it was a very good horn in playing and sound.
So the difference between a student horn and a pro horn in playing is not necessarily THAT big. For vintage instruments it is almost impossible to make this distinction. I own a 1942 beautiful 80A. What is it? Student? Pro? No idea. I also own a 1966 Olds Ambassador cornet. It's obviously a student horn, built like a tank but in fact the horn plays quite good and the quality of the mechanics is excellent. The only drawback is the (lack of) resonance. It will not produce a sound you want to do an audition with. But I don't have a big experience with student horns.
My list:
MG Tarv trumpet (new), looks a bit like a Gansschhorn, custom made top horn
Yamaha YTR 6345 (first generation 4 digits YTR) 0.463 bore
Henri Selmer B700 lb tuning bell (this could be a Committee killer)
Henri Selmer Concept TT
Conn 56B 1932
A&s pocket
Empire Brass (Indian) pocket
Conn 80A 1942
Conn 36A 1948 (sold)
Getzen Eterna 800 cornet (my practice horn often)
Yamaha YCR 2310 (sold)
Olds Ambassador cornet 1966
Verreijt Subliem, Belgium cornet
Miraphone rotary flügel
Adams F1 flügel (sold)
Jupiter 846 flügel (sold)
Conn 6H slide trombone
York (=Blessing?) valve trombone

[shofarguy]

[JayKosta]

When is the search for the 'best equipment' finished? And how much time and money is involved?
If (as some have claimed) that is takes weeks of use to verify some perceived improvement, then just doing a quick try-out and then purchase could be a long and costly road.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.