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Scientific Terminology and Feelings - let's build a guide


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Scientific Terminology and Feelings - let's build a guide Reply with quote

Based on recent discussion about 'compression', and the sometimes difficult understanding of terminology, I have written what I hope is the BEGINNING of a useful guide.

http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Terminology_and_Feelings.htm

note: you might get a warning message from your browser about my webpage(s) because I do not use httpS (the 'security flavor'). That's because my webpage are DIY simple 'static files' and they don't use cookies, Java, or anything else other than to display a simple webpage (there might be a static jpg picture) but that is about as fancy as I get.
If you would like, I can send you a very basic 'txt' or MS Word 'doc' file of the webpage.

The info on the webpage is my first effort to address a common item, I would like there to be more topics added later.

I would like your help to make this guide be worthwhile and useful - so your constructive input is requested.
You can send me personal email (jkosta@pronetisp.net), PM me on TH, or add posts to this thread.

thanks,
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.


Last edited by JayKosta on Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great idea - thanks for doing this!
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck! I hope there can be some positive changes made.
In the mouthpiece world, Gary Radke tried to get other makers to at least make their diameter measurements from the high point of the rim down to a particular depth in the cup.
Most of them didn't want to bother saying it doesn't tell you what if feels like.
Well, of course it doesn't, but the point was if there is a standard, you at least know what you might be getting.
Only Marcinkiewicz follows the same pattern GR does.
People don't like change - especially in the bizarre world of trumpet teaching.
R. Tomasek
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Jay.

I've been advocating for a while that the field of brass pedagogy could benefit from a more objective method of looking at brass technique. I commend you in this project and hope you'll continue to update it and keep it available.

Two quibbles:

1. I'm not so sure about this "experiment."

Quote:
… try this… make your usual lip aperture and gently place your fingertips on upper and lower lip. Then blow and also forcefully move your tongue to the AW and EEE positions – you will feel a change in your lips. Next, try to keep your tongue low and unmovable, and exert the same tongue muscle effort – your tongue will move only slightly, but you will feel a change on your lips. The movement and position of the tongue doesn’t affect the air pressure, but the tongue can be used to help adjust the lip aperture.


I see a couple of issues here. First, the aperture isn't really "formed," it's created in a combination of the lip compression and air blowing the lips open. Regardless, the tongue isn't attached to the lips and operates independently. When trying this out myself (with lips at rest, with lips firmed and touching, and with lips held slightly open) I don't get any real change at the lips by raising and lowering the tongue. I also consulted with a speech therapist (my wife) and asked her if in her experience there would be any connection to the lips moving and the tongue moving and she confirmed that they are separate movements (although she did explain that with young children there are sometimes issues with motor control development that make it difficult for them to make one movement without making another).

Perhaps your results in this experiment are due to a conditioned response? I'd be curious to hear what others find.

2. I appreciate the link to my blog. Thanks! I wish you would also include more references. I'm not a scientist (I'm a science fan), but I think it's fair to say that scientific literacy is more than just knowing facts and terms. It's equally important to understand not just what we know, but how we know it.

Keep fighting the good fight, Jay!

Thanks,

Dave
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lip action of rolling out he bottom lip while tensioning the corners is absolutely impossible for me to do without the tongue moving forward sympathetically. It is not a speech issue but yet an "eating" issue. Which is the primary and native function of the mouth.

Quote:
Perhaps your results in this experiment are due to a conditioned response? I'd be curious to hear what others find.


There is also a point of forward tongue movement that I can not surpass without a "reaction" of lip muscular action. I find it very difficult to separate these actions.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To expand on this, GR can actually measure the blow resistance of mouthpieces and horns mathematically. It is all part of his design program that he designed.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
...
1. I'm not so sure about this "experiment." ...

---------------------------
My 'experiment' assumes using a noticeable amount of muscle tension for moving the tongue - enough to also be able to feel some throat movement under the forward portion of the jaw.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
The lip action of rolling out he bottom lip while tensioning the corners is absolutely impossible for me to do without the tongue moving forward sympathetically. It is not a speech issue but yet an "eating" issue. Which is the primary and native function of the mouth.

. . .

There is also a point of forward tongue movement that I can not surpass without a "reaction" of lip muscular action. I find it very difficult to separate these actions.


Interesting. Out of curiosity, what happens if you move your tongue forward to your bottom lip if you're holding your lips in buzzing firmness? Does your lower lip roll out as you describe? I'm not so certain that this lower lip roll out has anything to do with how you're actually playing (or how you might actually want to be playing), but I haven't seen it.

Quote:
My 'experiment' assumes using a noticeable amount of muscle tension for moving the tongue - enough to also be able to feel some throat movement under the forward portion of the jaw.


Perhaps the movements in the lips that you're feeling are a result of the jaw movement and not necessarily the tongue?

The role of the jaw and tongue in coordination with the air and embouchure doesn't appear to be well understood. The actual answer here is probably a lot more nuanced than we're getting into right now. My specific quibble about your experiment might be more directly related to how it *feels* to us as we're playing and trying out your experiment, less than what is actually happening.

I think that the specific point you're trying to make in your document here is that the tongue arch doesn't make any changes to the air pressure, but rather aids or otherwise coordinates with lip compression. Am I correct in this point?

If so, how do we rectify this idea with the results in studies such as this one https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228887506_Some_effects_of_the_player's_vocal_tract_and_tongue_on_wind_instrument_sound? I don't have a full grasp on all the physics discussed, so I might be getting the wrong idea, but in the conclusions of their paper the researchers noted that tongue position of an artificial player affected the intonation of a pitch and also cause a transition of playing registers. I believe their findings suggest that the changes in pitch resulting from the changes of vocal tract are related to the vocal tract impedance and coupling it to the resonance of the instrument.

That would jive with your thoughts on air pressure, but not necessarily with the interconnectedness of tongue arch and lip compression.

Thanks,

Dave
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Out of curiosity, what happens if you move your tongue forward to your bottom lip if you're holding your lips in buzzing firmness? Does your lower lip roll out as you describe?


I am referring to the EFFORT of rolling out. When tensioning the embouchure to ascend we engage the roll-in and roll-out EFFORTS concurrently against each other, so there is not substantial movement. This increases the tension while immobilizing a portion of the lip aperture. This produces significant increase in the pitch played.

Tongue movement alone, without the lip aperture change does not control pitch played.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
...
I think that the specific point you're trying to make in your document here is that the tongue arch doesn't make any changes to the air pressure, but rather aids or otherwise coordinates with lip compression. Am I correct in this point?

If so, how do we rectify this idea with the results in studies such as this one https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228887506_Some_effects_of_the_player's_vocal_tract_and_tongue_on_wind_instrument_sound?
...

That would jive with your thoughts on air pressure, but not necessarily with the interconnectedness of tongue arch and lip compression.

Thanks,

Dave

--------------------------------------
From a very quick skim through that paper, I think this from the intro is a central concern -
"
1. INTRODUCTION
Many players of wind instruments talk of the perceived
importance of the shape of the mouth on the sound. ...

Why do some scientists doubt the musicians?

First, there is the complication that, when a player
changes mouth shape, s/he may also, unconsciously, change
lip tension and geometry. ...
"

Yes, the connections among lips, jaw, tongue, throat, etc. do seem to be quite complicated. Regarding tongue and 'air pressure', I think that keeping 'air pressure' aligned with 'blowing hard', and 'tongue position' aligned with 'lip adjustment' is more accurate.

Finding the 'right words' to convey the most useful information can be a struggle.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

I am referring to the EFFORT of rolling out. When tensioning the embouchure to ascend we engage the roll-in and roll-out EFFORTS concurrently against each other, so there is not substantial movement. This increases the tension while immobilizing a portion of the lip aperture. This produces significant increase in the pitch played.


I guess, but I think we're now getting into playing sensations maybe? I'm not so certain that the effort of the embouchure musculature is one of rolling in and rolling out the lips (or maybe not that that's what should actually be happening). Lloyd Leno's lip vibrations film on my YouTube channel (I'll post a link later if someone can't find it) seems to suggest lip compression/relaxation is more of a combination of the lips being blown out with the lips being drawn in toward the teeth and gums.

That said, there are at least three different distinct embouchure types. Two of those appear to derive their lip compression more from an up/down pressure of the lips against each other, whereas the third seems to be more of a forward/backward pinching of the lips together. I'm not an example of the later, so it's possible my sensations and impression of what's going on differ from yours.

Quote:
Tongue movement alone, without the lip aperture change does not control pitch played.


Sure, I think we all agree on that. However, the paper I linked to above did suggest that adjustments of the vocal tract/tongue position do alter intonation and pitch range.

Quote:
. CONCLUSIONS
In this study of a model player of wind instruments:
1. Vocal tract geometry dominates the timbre of the sound of the didjeridu, and less strongly affects the timbre of the trombone.
2. The tract geometry affects the played pitch by typically 20 cents over both instrument-dominated and reed-dominated regimes in both instruments. It can also cause a transition between different playing registers.
3. Raising the tongue, or the tongue tip, increases the height of peaks in the vocal tract impedance, and so more effectively couples it to the instrument resonances and to the reed or lips. This gives wind players a method of fine pitch adjustment, by variably coupling a largely imaginary impedance. It also explains the intonation problem sometimes introduced by double tonguing.


JayKosta wrote:
From a very quick skim through that paper, I think this from the intro is a central concern -


Indeed. That is precisely why they designed their experiment using artificial lips and vocal tract, so that they could isolate the variables without the unconscious changes that happen. According to that paper, a change in the tongue arch/vocal tract would appear to influence the pitch enough to alter the intonation and playing register. That does jive with what a lot of brass musicians say it feels like is happening.

As I mentioned above, I think it's safe to say at this point that this isn't a result of the air pressure, but still doubt that it is directly related to a change in the tongue position altering the lip compression in any meaningful way.

Dave
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
... According to that paper, a change in the tongue arch/vocal tract would appear to influence the pitch enough to alter the intonation and playing register. That does jive with what a lot of brass musicians say it feels like is happening.

As I mentioned above, I think it's safe to say at this point that this isn't a result of the air pressure, but still doubt that it is directly related to a change in the tongue position altering the lip compression in any meaningful way.

Dave

-----------------------------
I did see the mention of tongue arch/vocal tract having an effect on precise pitch production (I think that +/- 20 cents was mentioned). I must have missed the section that discussed 'playing register - i.e. being able to move between harmonic series steps.
edit: found it it Conclusions #2, but the discussion in the paper is about didjeridu , and I don't know if that applies to typical brass cup mouthpiece technique.

And to be clear, I don't think it is the actual 'physical position' of the tongue that alters lip adjustment. It is the muscle tension that is used in the process of attempting to move the tongue, and what effect the muscle tension has on the lips and jaw that is meaningful.

So yes, giving instruction about moving the tongue can be helpful to teach what muscles need to be activated, and even using the tongue as the 'control stick' to activate those muscles (maybe that is what mention of the tongue as the 'rudder' is about - from some other sources I've seen).
-- those pesky words !
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification, Jay. You do phrase your idea, "the tongue can be used to help adjust the lip aperture." Perhaps you could be more clear in your document that you're discussing something different.

I still haven't been convinced that this phenomena is universal, since I don't experience this sensation he same way as you and Darryl, nor does it jive with what a speech therapist (who presumably should understand the physiology of these muscles better than us). And just so you understand, kalijah, speech therapy doesn't just involved speech. It also is involved in eating and swallowing too. Before transitioning to student speech therapy my wife had extensive experience working with elderly stroke patience with swallowing disorders.

Since your document is about the differences and intersections of playing sensations with the scientific principles I personally would try to make your discussion on the connection of the tongue with the lip muscles made more clear. And since your discussion about the tongue position is nominally in the section devoted to air pressure perhaps that could be moved to a section devoted to its own topic?

My (minor) criticisms aside, I really do like that you're undertaking this project, Jay. I would encourage you to continue adding to and making updates and corrections as new information is discovered. Thanks!

Dave
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It also is involved in eating and swallowing too. Before transitioning to student speech therapy my wife had extensive experience working with elderly stroke patience with swallowing disorders.


This action is not so much related to swallowing but debris rejection and food mastication. This is clearly evident.

As for the scientific discussion Jay I think you are off in the weeds a bit. Especially trying to include Bernoulli in the list. ( The true nuance or concept of the Bernoulli equation will not be understood by most players. It just will not. Of course some will attempt to use their misunderstood interpretation to insist on their cause-effect "explanation". Especially in regard to tongue arch, aperture size, etc.)


What FIRST must be established for persons to communicate effectively is to define terms that are elementary.

For example: air concepts of flow, pressure, compression, volume, resistance.

These are the primary concepts that are easily understandable but often undefined in discussions.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, Jay. You do phrase your idea, "the tongue can be used to help adjust the lip aperture." Perhaps you could be more clear in your document that you're discussing something different. ...

--------------------------------------------
I've made a few changes to my webpage, trying to clarify the issue of tongue and aperture.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Terminology_and_Feelings.htm
you might have to 'refresh' the page on your web browser to get the latest upda
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:


This action is not so much related to swallowing but debris rejection and food mastication. This is clearly evident.


I don't think it is evident. And this is my main criticism with many of the (very interesting and always friendly) conversations we've had when we get into a discussion of the science behind brass technique. You tend to state things as facts without bothering to explain your reasoning or citing sources that at least confirm what you believe to be true. I just don't see how the action of moving the tongue itself has a direct effect on the amount of lip compression. Particularly since an expert (who perhaps may be biased, since I'm married to her, but I did phrase buy questions trying to not lead her to the answer I wanted to hear) has stated differently than you. Can you cite a source or explain in more detail?

Quote:
Especially trying to include Bernoulli in the list. ( The true nuance or concept of the Bernoulli equation will not be understood by most players. It just will not. Of course some will attempt to use their misunderstood interpretation to insist on their cause-effect "explanation". Especially in regard to tongue arch, aperture size, etc.


It's worth trying. I think the main difficulty that I have is what I mentioned above. Our discussions haven't helped me grok Bernoulli because I don't feel you've done much more than stating facts without explaining why it's true.

Quote:
What FIRST must be established for persons to communicate effectively is to define terms that are elementary.


Coming to a consensus on terms is important, but that is only a small part of scientific literacy. How we know what we know and the overall scientific method is more important (to me) in the long term than memorizing facts.

There are some excellent science communicators out there who may provide a good model for us to follow. This is a field of its own that I think does important work.

Dave
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
... As for the scientific discussion Jay I think you are off in the weeds a bit. Especially trying to include Bernoulli in the list.
---
What FIRST must be established for persons to communicate effectively is to define terms that are elementary.

For example: air concepts of flow, pressure, compression, volume, resistance.

These are the primary concepts that are easily understandable but often undefined in discussions.

---------------------------------------
It seems that my 'bulleted list' formatting of sections gets lost when saving the MS Word file as an htm - I've made some fonts changes that might help.

The inclusion of Bernoulli is not part of the Breath section - I intend it to be a separate item that often gets mentioned when talking about embouchure.

And yes, getting 'lost in the weeds' is difficult for me to avoid - especially since many of the items aren't stand-alone, but have many interactions.

I'll think about your suggestion of defining and explaining the various terms. But that also gets complicated when trying to be precise - e.g. gas flow - mass/second, volume/second, - does that make a difference here, and especially when the question of air speed and loudness get involved.

If you can suggest a webpage that would a good reference, that would be a big help.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I just don't see how the action of moving the tongue itself has a direct effect on the amount of lip compression.


Usually it doesn't for low and moderate tongue positions. But that wasn't my point. I can NOT, with a playing aperture, firm the corners AND engage in effort to roll-out the bottom lip without the tongue moving forward sympathetically.

Quote:
I think the main difficulty that I have is what I mentioned above. Our discussions haven't helped me grok Bernoulli because I don't feel you've done much more than stating facts without explaining why it's true.


I have tried, truly I have, and I have some other approaches that may help you understand. But for the most part it is irrelevant to playing.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i first suggested, to finally end with the same eternal debates, to define common definition of words, of how are pression, air, vibration etc involved in range, dynamics, etc. nothing happened.

Then Jay Kosta has suggested to write a guide.
Apparently, nothing has changed since all the same debates happen again and again.
Trumpetteacher was right when he replied me that there was no such thing as consensus on TH.

Better to laugh at it
Good luck
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Apparently, nothing has changed since all the same debates happen again and again.


Is it OK if I debate with your characterization of this discussion?

I think honest and polite debate is fine. In fact, I'd go further to suggest it's very useful. In fact, it seems like Jay has found some of the discussion helpful, at least enough to modify his document a bit.

Quote:
have tried, truly I have, and I have some other approaches that may help you understand. But for the most part it is irrelevant to playing.


As a starting point, not being directly relevant to playing is fine (at least for my personal interest and desire to understand better). I did mention that there are some excellent science communicators out there, and it might not be necessary to re-invent the wheel. Here's one I found helpful to me:

https://youtu.be/fJefjG3xhW0

Dave
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