Student or Professional Model.

[WildWilly]

Are there attributes of a student model trumpet that make it easier for a beginner to play. Or is it made less expensive so the student can get started? Also play the saxophone and some of the Yamaha student models are considered better than some of the the pro models.
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Not a 2nd childhood, still in the 1st
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Étude ETR-100
Gretsch Pathfinder

[Goby]

A lot of student instruments are designed to be easier for young kids to play. This would mean a tighter wrap, adjustable 3rd slide ring, probably a tighter blow (or just low quality construction). Generally, beginning students aren't looking for the most pristine classical sound, so they'll be fine with a sub-par instrument until they progress a little more. Most beginners aren't familiar with how fragile a professional instrument really is, so I would expect a student model to be built with durability in mind over performance. Obviously there are exceptions, most notably the Olds Ambassador. Even the Getzen 300 and Kanstul Besson student horns were pretty good.

[Dennis78]

You’re likely to get mixed response but yes. Any well known maker designed their student models to be more accommodating to the student. As for better student trumpets than pro. Probably not really. But definitely occasionally
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a few different ones

[Crazy Finn]

[Andy Del]

Or... a student is far less able to get an instrument to work well, so giving them a tight, harder to work horn, possibly built to a lower standard doesn't seem to make much sense.

Take one well known brand S*****. their step up' student model, apart from falling to bits easily is so tight and nasty that I have seen many kids get disheartened and give up only months after getting their 'own trumpet'. So disappointing! Addto that the tuning slide needs to be out almost an inch and a half to get down to pitch.

Try getting a kid to play some student horns play a good pro horn in a semi blind test. You'll hear it, they will hear it and parents will hear it.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[OldSchoolEuph]

There may have been a time when it could be argued that student horns in general were "easier to play" by way of more secure centering, heavier build for tonal stability if overblown, and a lack of distractions like saddles on first or triggers. Yes, a 65 Bundy would be "easier" to learn on than a Schilke B1.

Those days are gone. Today, student means one thing: cheap. Andy has already made the key point, the c____ sold today as student horns drives kids away from what would have been a future in music. In some cases it is frustration at not being able to make it work, in others it is the so-called instrument falling apart and Dad getting mad at the kid for breaking it after the music store says they can't fix it. (parents dont get that a couple hundred bucks is a disposable horn)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Shawnino]

A great shame. A student horn should be able to well withstand the vagaries of marching, bumping into chairs and stands, and so on. But nowadays, no.

A greater shame, perhaps, is that any student horn can get a crappy silverplating job done and it instantly becomes an Intermediate horn.

[jondrowjf@gmail.com]

Guess I am old school, but I think a beginning player should start on a cornet. Easier to hold for small hands and for the sound feedback.
Personally I would skip the student level horns.
A great first trumpet would be the Getzen 700 S Eterna trumpet. Not familiar with the equivalent Yamaha or Bach trumpets. Definitely stay with name brand horns.
Learning to play the trumpet isn't easy, don't need equipment failure.
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King 603 cornet
Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e mouthpiece
Bach 5 B mouthpiece

[Bflatman]

The name student intermediate and professional are generally made up classifications and manufacturers avoid such names.

You dont find student automobiles student aeroplanes student ovens student computers.

You do find products that have fewer of the desirable characteristics of professional products.

Instrument manufacturers are like car manufacturers they choose the attributes they want in a new line to attract customers and they predict the sales and weigh up if there is likely to be enough profit to justify its production.

They are not in the business of making rubbish that they know wont last because they know that once a customer is lost they are gone forever.

So yes we have to talk about chinese and indian manufacturers who only want to shift product and dont care about keeping customers.

The unusable and easily broken instruments come exclusively from china and india. Lets not beat about the bush here.

Taiwanese manufacturers are chinese people as well and they have no difficulty whatsoever making quality products that last. The mainland chinese choose to make rubbish as a business ethic. It is all about not caring about their products.

You cannot argue that a company that ships a trumpet in which the valves dont move and the slides are stuck actually cares about their products or the customer.

The reason is many chinese companies are set up to make quick copies of well designed western instruments for a fast buck with no care over future sales so it does not matter to them if customers ever buy another instrument they took their profits and the customers can go hang.

Some chinese companies are waking up now and making good products that last but I am still seeing new trumpets that the slides dont pull and the valves dont move. These manufacturers cannot even be bothered to find out if their products function.

This is unacceptable.

In this discussion we have to separate these worthless instruments that are called student instruments from the good quality student instruments that will last a lifetime and are made by good companies like jupiter carol yamaha besson bach.

I do not believe that a decent trumpet is fragile.

What we are used to seeing is chinese and indian instruments flooding the market at very low prices and these poor instruments are fragile.

For hundreds of years instrument manufacturers have made strong robust inexpensive well playing instruments that have good tone good intonation and last 100 years reliably.

And in a few short years that has been swept away and we now accept that "student" instruments dont play well do not function out of the box are flimsy and unrepairable and only last a few months before being thrown in the dumpster.

We should be stamping this rubbish out not discussing its merits.

And I am cast as a villain for saying this rubbish is unacceptable and that these worthless instruments that put students off a lifetime of music all come from china and india. They all come from china and India.

Saying something is rubbish when it is rubbish is not being prejudiced.

Student instruments are not bad instruments. It is manufacturers that make them so, if they are bad manufacturers.

Traditional chinese manufacturers made good products I own one it is a great instrument. Recently manufacturing has exploded in china and the modern chinese manufacturers are simply making rubbish.

They can make more money shifting 1000 horns at 50 dollars each than by selling 100 horns they have to carefully manufacture for 200 dollars each

It is clear that they make them hastily and throw them together and hope they work.

The only good instruments coming from china are sold through good american and european companies who test them and reject the rubbish before sale such as Jean Paul. I would have no hesitation in advising a student to buy a chinese made jean paul instrument.

The same is true of India and Besson. Indian made Bessons are great.

Student instruments are great instruments I own three one of which is chinese and they all play very well with good tone good intonation and good valves.

It is modern clueless manufacturers who dont care about quality where the problem lies.

A professional may find a student instrument like a yamaha horn delivers what he or she needs and is a better horn than a pro horn from a different manufacturer. That may be because traditional student horns are in fact pretty damned good.

I do find that some professional instruments are better for students it depends on the student and their needs.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[kehaulani]

You really grabbed me, jondrowjf, about half the way through. I thought of small based horn makers in Germany, where I lived 20 years, and saw first-hand, who, with much less available resources than some others, turn out first-class quality instruments.

I had a French Horn restored after major damage by a guy who lived in the next village and it was stellar. And you will probably never hear of him. One-man shop. Pride and ethics.

When companies are starting out, often resources are limited. But quality control does not have to be. I lived in post WWII Japan, and saw many items made out of American beer cans and other throw-away items. But they rose from the ashes in part because, underlying everything they did, was work ethic.

BTW, thanks for using small paragraphs.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[OldSchoolEuph]

[JetJaguar]

There are some name brand student horns who must desire recognition and recommendation among the parents of students, like Mendini, Jean Paul. I wouldn't think they spend too much time conditioning the bells, though. Resonance is what one looks for in a pro horn. For $100 a kid just needs to learn the notes and toot out a few tunes and decide if he/she wants to advance.
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[OldSchoolEuph]

[Dennis78]

I’m the one person here in America that has not had an issue with the Chinese made horns. I own a few and use them.
That being said......
They don’t stack up to my Holton t/c 6xx horns nor are they comparable to my Bach cr310.
I think the whole student horn debate is kinda useless, the major makers call them standard models. And that’s what you get.....
A regular, functional horn.
I don’t think much of personal opinions but they do provide a base. Go to pawn shops and try a few out
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a few different ones

[mikepodorski]

I have owned a Jean Paul and it was very nice for the money. The valves were great, good tone (a tad bright) and intonation. They cheaped out on the case and mouthpiece though. I ended up selling it when I found my Xeno.

I'm teaching my son to play, so I have a totally new perspective on student horns. Its hard to justify spending significant money on a new instrument. So far, he is sticking to it and doing pretty well. Many schools have an approved list of instruments that exclude Chinese stuff, which I understand. Many of the cheap trumpets have significant valve issues, or they are awful to play. So, does a parent jump in with both feet and invest a weeks pay on a tr300 or ytr-2335, rent and lose all your investment when the student quits, or go Chinese? The good thing is there are a ton of barely used trumpets on Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist from the parents that went all in. My son started on my old worn out Holton. I just found him a very solid King Tempo.

[Crazy Finn]

[Bflatman]

OldSchoolEuph those examples are isolated one offs and in no way prove student in those areas. Your point is not proven.

I have a trumpet called a student model trumpet and engraved "STUDENT" and its existence does not prove the student trumpet exists as an entire class of trumpets and in no way proves the "student" case for trumpets.

We are speaking here of a complete class of student instrument where significant numbers of models are classified as student and sold as student models.

You show me a hang glider as an example of a student aeroplane.

Of course there are aeroplanes used as training aeroplanes because they are most suited to training use. The cessna 152 is one such. I received my flight training on a cessna 152 so I do know about trainer aeroplanes.

Nontheless these cessnas were not designed as trainers they were designed as single engine models with forgiving characteristics that were suitable for beginners to train on. Single engined aircraft are not beginner aircraft.

Student trainers make up less than 1% of all aeroplanes sold and operated.

Exactly what percentage of instruments are so called student instruments. I would suggest more than 30% of all instruments sold and used and possibly as much as 60%.

Look at the major instrument manufacturers they all have student models yamaha bach carol jupiter all have student models and sell large numbers of them.

Car manufacturers do not make student cars intermediate cars or professional cars.

When you go to a car dealership of a major manufacturer the dealership does not ask you if you want a student car or an intermediate car or a step up car or a professional car.

To put this in perspective take the Ford lineup. As a major manufacturer we should expect to see student models in the lineup but do we see student models.

The 2020 ecosport and the 2020 escape should be called student models

The 2021 bronco sport and the 2021 bronco should be called step up models

The 2020 edge and the 2020 explorer should be called intermediate models

The 2021 mustang mach-e and 2020 expedition should be called professional models.

Why do we not see student Fords or step up Fords.

Do you see how these classifications like student do not work in other areas like cars ovens aeroplanes apart from a few very small numbers of speciality items and we are not talking about a few speciality items when we speak of student trumpets.

I have seen ovens in many homes and I have yet to see student ovens or step up ovens or intermediate ovens.

Do you drive a professional car or a step up car or do you drive an intermediate car or are you still driving a student car.

There really is no such thing as a student car except a very small number of specialist vehicles.

I have owned cars motorbikes boats and pushbikes and none of them were sold as student step up intermediate or professional models.

Lets look at boeing. If there were student aeroplanes like student instruments then as a major manufacturer Boeing must surely make student models.

We see the 737 737-MAX 747-8 748 767 777 777X 787 and the freightliner, which of these is the student model, the 737? that is the cheapest and has the lowest performance.

In all other areas student step up intermediate and professional grades do not exist so why do these classes exist in instruments. It makes no sense.

When I worked for a major car manufacturer and I was working in all critical design areas including the concepts of future models I never heard any manager or design engineer speak of designing building or marketing student cars. Student cars do not exist in automotive.

My argument holds.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[OldSchoolEuph]

The student instrument market by the late 1960s accounted for more than 70% of the market overall. If we lump decent student instruments from Yamaha, Jupiter, the TR-300, and the low number Carols (if you can find one) in with all the rest of the junk costing a quarter as much, it is probably a significantly higher percentage of volume today.

The genesis of the student market was the abundance of entry level, cheaply built (usually import) instruments at the end of the 19th century that people bought to learn on before risking a major investment. HN White was the first to really acknowledge that as a market when he rebranded the former stencil "Imperial" he had had to start building himself thanks to WWI as the "King Junior" in 1920. He followed-up with the more explicit "Student Prince" a few years later as Holton played on the same recognition by introducing "Collegiate" in 1927.

That concept of low price entry level expanded into something different though, which remains in the few much more expensive student options I noted above, and which was ideally summed up in the reference to aircraft that work well for learners (and I would thus call student aircraft) "with forgiving characteristics that were suitable for beginners to train on".

That quote is not honored by the abundance of the junk horns out there today, and thus the bulk of student market sakes have become alienated from what best defines the student market.

As for cars: you (should) know that automakers group them at the lowest tiers as Entry and Step-up, then for the bulk of volume at the mid price-point as family and business/fleet, and then at the upper tier as performance and luxury. Cars and instruments are in fact tiered very much the same by their makers. (and trucks are light-duty, utility and commercial). All of these tiered structures amount to the same concept of wanna-be, average, and elite.

Student should not be synonymous with low quality, only low capability. Unfortunately, volumetrically, it seems to be strongly correlated today.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Bflatman]

I am going to pull you up on this

You are falling into the trap of marketing hype.

All products are made with different criteria and qualities and in hardly any sector are students and entry customers the target consumer.

Many products are more suitable for students or entry customers however so students and first time owners do purchase them. This does not mean that the products were conceived as student or entry products.

You said that I should know that automakers group them at the lowest tiers as Entry and Step-up, then for the bulk of volume at the mid price-point as family and business/fleet, and then at the upper tier as performance and luxury. Cars and instruments are in fact tiered very much the same by their makers.

Well as it happens I do know I have worked in automotive for a major manufacturer who was member of the Ford group. I worked on all critical areas of engineering design including new products and new models.

In no part of the concept and design on vehicles is there any mention of entry and step up.

The process is one of considering the various attributes desired such as acceleration top speed comfort number of passengers trunk space and various add ons and accessories. And then the forecasted sales.

There is no such thing as an entry or step up model. There is a range of models that allow growth within the companies product line as the customer matures.

Every year all products are given facelifts to mature the range.

The idea in automotive manufacturing of entry or step up models is totally wrong. I have been involved in manufacturing all my life in many different sectors ranging from automotive to construction to utilities to IT to nuclear and all industries are the same.

I have never in my life encountered in any manufacturing sector or industry the concept of entry and step up models, only in this musical instrument forum have I seen it.

If there were entry and step up models I would have heard of it in my work in the vehicle ordering process which I worked on alongside the work I did in customer and product design and sales forecasting.

I understand that it might appear that companies buy into the idea of building products for students and beginners to enter the product range but this is misleading. It is about offering products with attributes that make sense to customers at all levels and the predicted volume sales yielding a predicted profitability.

The fact that students buy cheap cars or instruments does not matter what matters is that high volume sales occur with cheaper products.

The manufacturer does not care that it is called a student or entry product.

This is the world of gearing ratios profit and loss financial forecasting sales forecasts and product unit cost. Plus customer aspirations wants and desires.

Who buys the product does not matter as long as the sales revenue outstrips the production costs.

There is a very good reason why manufacturers do well to avoid entry models and step up models as vehicle descriptors.

If a hard working man can only afford an inexpensive vehicle and it is his pride and joy he will be very upset to discover it labeled as an entry level or a step up vehicle. This customer may then be lost.

Companies are in the business of making customers happy not in alienating them.

Apologies for the late reply.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[Bflatman]

In deference to your extensive knowledge I quite undrestand that manufacturers have clouded the issue.

If we look at the F.E.Olds company

The Special is advertised as being priced within a students budget.

This clearly places the special as a student instrument but I feel it is an advertising classification and not a design concept classification.

In terms of the product unit cost and how Olds managed to achieve low cost production, records show that Olds was thinking in terms of Student as the target customer

"On the Ambassador and bugle lines, you started with a pile of pieces (valve sections already assembled) and stared putting things together *very quickly*. If anything went wrong, you set the unfinished instrument aside and started a new one. The undesirable position in the assembly department was to be the guy who took all the unfinished seconds, as well as any that didn't pass inspection, and try to quickly assemble usable instruments out of the seconds. Any components that couldn't be utilized quickly were dumped - there simply wasn't enough profit in the student and marching instruments to allow for much labor."

I still maintain that the fundamental design concepts were based on keeping costs low to appeal to customers with lower budgets and not targeting students and entry level.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet