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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes you are on the mark. This time you are simply wrong.

Come to the Detroit Auto Show (if we ever have one again) and check out how the brands choose to label their budget offerings.

As for instruments: the existence of the "student prince" alone refutes your argument.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I still maintain that the fundamental design concepts were based on keeping costs low to appeal to customers with lower budgets and not targeting students and entry level.

You can maintain that, but you're wrong.

In fact, it's both. The low cost instruments are specifically designed to fit within retail store's rental programs designed to appeal to parents for their aspiring student musicians.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I maintain that what you quote is a marketing and not a design philosophy and as such has nothing to do with the product quality and all to do with product placement.

I am talking performance here not marketing as the criteria for deciding student and professional grade.

Once a product is designed and produced following a development program the marketing geniuses take over and the result is the marketing strategy.

This marketing strategy often has little to do with the quality of the product.

Marketing principles are often the complete opposite of the design principles.

I hold the Olds Ambassador as a prime example of this.

In marketing documents and sales strategy the Ambassador was named as a student instrument.

In concept, design, and execution however nothing could be further from the truth.

The Ambassador was assembled from professional parts manufactured on the Olds professional model production lines.

Valve blocks used in the professional instruments the tubing used in the professional ranges formed on the professional mandrels made with the same brass were used in the manufacturing of the Ambassador model.

The Ambassador was almost completely a professional instrument. Only the leadpipe was not a super or a recording leadpipe. All the rest of the instrument was. Some top pros and teachers swapped out the leadpipe and the result was a fabulous instrument.

It was marketed as a student instrument so it must surely have been a student grade. Therefore the Olds Super which used the same parts as the Ambassador must also have been a student grade instrument.

Marketing and product placement has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with shifting product.

This is my point entirely It does not matter if the marketing department calls a product student or entry level if it is made of professional parts and performs as a professional model but is priced so that students can afford it, it is not a student product it is a professional product at student price.

I will give an invented example. If Ford over produced GT40 bodies 425 cu inch engines racing stick shift transmissions steering and suspension parts and then assembled GT40s out of these parts so they look like GT40s perform like GT40s and win races like GT40s but cost only 5000 dollars each, is this assembled up GT40 a student car.

It is student or entry level price and marketing would be quick to advertise it as a student Ford GT40, GT40 body GT40 ride GT40 speed and GT40 performance all at the price the student can afford.

Does affordability make a horn a student horn is the only measure of a pro horn simply that it costs 6000 dollars and students cannot afford it.

Or is the measure of a student instrument simply that a marketing genius decided to call it a student instrument and we trust them totally on this.

A marketing genius is driven by only one motive. To shift product however he can and make his sales targets and get his bonus so he can buy a condominium.

Or is the difference between student and professional one of performance.

The wise musician ignores names and marketing strategy and assesses instruments on their performance alone.

If it is based on cost and marketing names then the Olds Ambassador is a student instrument. If it is based on performance then the Olds Ambassador is a professional instrument.

This idea that a student instrument is simply a cheap instrument has led some students to discard professional grade instruments that they purchased at low cost in the belief that they are poor instruments and replace them with low grade instruments that were more expensive being fooled by the higher price alone.

The Ambassador will out perform many step up and intermediate horns and at very low cost. Is it therefore a professional instrument. It was marketed as a student instrument it is known as a student instrument it costs less than most horrifically poor instruments.

The same is true of Yamaha student instruments Yamaha build their student instruments with design elements from their professional ranges. Yamaha student instruments perform excellently I have one and I do not hesitate to choose this student instrument for professional performances.

Is it a professional or a student instrument. Many professionals base their professional career on this student instrument. Do they have a student career.

The question of what is a student instrument must in my opinion be based solely upon design concept design execution and performance and never upon the uneducated decisions of a marketing department who choose to name it student or professional.
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jimspeedjae
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never designed a car, but designed and developed a few other things in my time.

I can't remember one where the marketing aspect wasn't fundamental to the design designs being made. Knowing what the audience wants and who the customer is for any product is an essential part of the business case for development.

To think that anyone builds something to a lower specification, or indeed a higher specification/cost and cost without knowing who they are targeting it at is not realistic. Not in my world, anyway.

One of the principal success factors of any product is sales sustainability.

The GT40 was built with very specific success goals, which weren't sales oriented. It was a race car. But there are other race cars built for student racers - the Ginetta Junior, for example.

The GT is actually a rare example where marketing gets involved after something has been designed and produced to sell it. It is the exception to the rule. Otherwise, everyone would just build stuff and then try and figure out how to sell it. And fail. Think Segway, or even worse Sinclair C-5 - field of dreams business models.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have inverted the historical reality - and your example is right on point.

Foster Reynolds was lured out of retirement by CMI because management had decided they wanted to expand this particular holding to a full line manufacturer. He argued with that leadership, SPECIFICALLY THAT OLDS NEEDED TO ADDRESS THE STUDENT MARKET in order to not miss out on where the bulk of sales were going, and sold his case by demonstrating that, as Conn was doing with older designs becoming "Pan-American" models after some de-contenting (to use a term borrowed from the automotive design process), they could leverage existing tooling and excess capacity to minimize the capital investment required thus maximizing margin at that price point. That business case is what changed CMI's direction.

The Ambassador was not just a trumpet, its was a set of student horns replicating Olds offerings at higher levels, but to focus on that one horn, the leadpipe indeed became a simple one with intonation issues, but very low rates of QC failure, the bell making was simplified (frankenbassadors I have seen pros use have new bells), and trim was simplified relative to the Olds norm in 1949. This together with less buffing and widening valve fit tolerance all made for a successful product that, from its inception by Reynolds, was specifically for the student market.

And the automotive PD process is no different. Market analysts identify segment penetration (particularly by competitors as a negative determinant) and price-cost ratio targets to identify segment opportunities. Brands then define product FOs (functional objectives) and employ the design organization to propose concepts. When those concepts come before the first Brand review, they already are introduced with regard to what segment is targeted and why. Long before years and layers of content engineering, packaging, productionization, management approvals and thriftings define what the final content will be, the purpose of the product - what segment it targets - is the starting point of design.

It would be a fun world if people could get paid to think-tank and create new products AND THEN figure out what to do with them. The cost of labor and capital precludes such indulgences. Necessity is indeed the mother of invention, because without it there will be no invention conceived.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I maintain that what you quote is a marketing and not a design philosophy and as such has nothing to do with the product quality and all to do with product placement.

I am talking performance here not marketing as the criteria for deciding student and professional grade.

Once a product is designed and produced following a development program the marketing geniuses take over and the result is the marketing strategy.

This marketing strategy often has little to do with the quality of the product.

Marketing principles are often the complete opposite of the design principles.

I hold the Olds Ambassador as a prime example of this.

In marketing documents and sales strategy the Ambassador was named as a student instrument.

In concept, design, and execution however nothing could be further from the truth.

The Ambassador was assembled from professional parts manufactured on the Olds professional model production lines.

Valve blocks used in the professional instruments the tubing used in the professional ranges formed on the professional mandrels made with the same brass were used in the manufacturing of the Ambassador model.

The Ambassador was almost completely a professional instrument. Only the leadpipe was not a super or a recording leadpipe. All the rest of the instrument was. Some top pros and teachers swapped out the leadpipe and the result was a fabulous instrument.

It was marketed as a student instrument so it must surely have been a student grade. Therefore the Olds Super which used the same parts as the Ambassador must also have been a student grade instrument.

Marketing and product placement has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with shifting product.

This is my point entirely It does not matter if the marketing department calls a product student or entry level if it is made of professional parts and performs as a professional model but is priced so that students can afford it, it is not a student product it is a professional product at student price.

I will give an invented example. If Ford over produced GT40 bodies 425 cu inch engines racing stick shift transmissions steering and suspension parts and then assembled GT40s out of these parts so they look like GT40s perform like GT40s and win races like GT40s but cost only 5000 dollars each, is this assembled up GT40 a student car.

It is student or entry level price and marketing would be quick to advertise it as a student Ford GT40, GT40 body GT40 ride GT40 speed and GT40 performance all at the price the student can afford.

Does affordability make a horn a student horn is the only measure of a pro horn simply that it costs 6000 dollars and students cannot afford it.

Or is the measure of a student instrument simply that a marketing genius decided to call it a student instrument and we trust them totally on this.

A marketing genius is driven by only one motive. To shift product however he can and make his sales targets and get his bonus so he can buy a condominium.

Or is the difference between student and professional one of performance.

The wise musician ignores names and marketing strategy and assesses instruments on their performance alone.

If it is based on cost and marketing names then the Olds Ambassador is a student instrument. If it is based on performance then the Olds Ambassador is a professional instrument.

This idea that a student instrument is simply a cheap instrument has led some students to discard professional grade instruments that they purchased at low cost in the belief that they are poor instruments and replace them with low grade instruments that were more expensive being fooled by the higher price alone.

The Ambassador will out perform many step up and intermediate horns and at very low cost. Is it therefore a professional instrument. It was marketed as a student instrument it is known as a student instrument it costs less than most horrifically poor instruments.

The same is true of Yamaha student instruments Yamaha build their student instruments with design elements from their professional ranges. Yamaha student instruments perform excellently I have one and I do not hesitate to choose this student instrument for professional performances.

Is it a professional or a student instrument. Many professionals base their professional career on this student instrument. Do they have a student career.

The question of what is a student instrument must in my opinion be based solely upon design concept design execution and performance and never upon the uneducated decisions of a marketing department who choose to name it student or professional.




I'd say this was Capt._Kirk like, except the spelling and grammar are too good.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion seems to have disagreement about how the term 'student' is used, and what it means regarding the functionality of the instrument.
- Is a 'student' level instrument made specifically for teaching new players, and with design considerations that inhibit its use beyond the initial learning stage?
- Is it made to function well at its intended price point?
- Is it made for a price point with just 'acceptable functionality'.
- At what level of playing proficiency (or repertoire / job) does a good 'student level' instrument become less acceptable.

Jay
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Student Instrument Market is a direct consequence of the emergence of music education in the public schools a century ago.

At the turn of that century, there were almost no music teachers employed by schools - those that were instructed students in vocal music. By the onset of the Great Depression though, instrumental music education had appeared in the larger schools across the country and many of the statewide music education coordinating entities had been established and were beginning to even hold standardized solo and ensemble level competitions to help calibrate programs to their peers. It was a huge paradigm shift.

So between 1910 and 1930, the demand for affordable instruments for school age children went from miniscule to massive. The used instrument market was quickly unable to support that demand.

HN White was the first to recognize this primary/secondary school instrumental music education movement as forming a market in 1920. Holton followed in 1927 with Conn not far behind.

Instruments designed to sell in this market can be grouped by a number of functional objectives:
- Priced at a point that can be justified as an educational resource for kids
- Reasonably durable under kid-related stresses (looser tolerances, heavy build)
- Not inclusive of features requiring higher ability to utilize
- Able to be produced at higher volumes / with less man-hours

Some companies pursued this market almost or exclusively (Elkhart BIC, Wm Frank, etc.) while some steered clear of it entirely (Benge, etc.) Most mixed in offerings for this segment with their pro model production (Couesnon, Bach, etc.).

The Depression and WWII put a damper on the growth of music education in the United States, but then in the 1950s it took off spreading to even rural schools. By the 1960s, the student market was 2/3 to 3/4 of the market. The percentage became even higher in the 1980s.

Somewhere between 1955 and 1965, the high volume offset the low price point sufficiently to make student market horns the critical financial determinant for makers, not high margin pro instruments. That ultimately led to the collapse of the American instrument making industry, as low-cost-labor countries could meet the quality standards of the Student market much cheaper than American manufacturing.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a whole bunch of stuff here. I'm going to spare readers quoting your entire dissertation and pick out 3 points.

Bflatman wrote:
I maintain that what you quote is a marketing and not a design philosophy and as such has nothing to do with the product quality and all to do with product placement.


You maintain that marketing and design are completely separate. That's not how it works. In my previous capacity in music retail, I've talked to reps from instrument makers. They specifically design instruments to meet price points. Student instruments aren't designed to be "worse" or "lesser" instruments, they are just produced in a more affordable way to meet price points. However, that lower price point does result in less refined instruments.

Bflatman wrote:
Marketing principles are often the complete opposite of the design principles.

I hold the Olds Ambassador as a prime example of this.

Many hold the Ambassador up as an example of Olds as making all their instruments to the same quality level regardless of it's a Mendez or Ambassador. I don't have any knowledge of how true this was or wasn't, other than having read many of the same sources as others. I think the Ambassador is a solid horn. However...

It's completely irrelevant.

The Olds Ambassador was designed over 70 years ago.

The Olds company itself ceased to function over 40 years ago.

Drawing a conclusion that there's no difference between student instruments and professional instruments other than marketing based on a single instrument designed over 70 years ago by a company that went out of business over 40 years ago is frankly ridiculous.

It's like making sweeping statements about the current state of the automobile industry except that you are basing them on the Nash Rambler and the Hudson Hornet.

Bflatman wrote:
The same is true of Yamaha student instruments Yamaha build their student instruments with design elements from their professional ranges. Yamaha student instruments perform excellently I have one and I do not hesitate to choose this student instrument for professional performances.

Yamaha student instrument have a solid reputation. They do filter some features down from the professional models over the course of many years.

However, they are in no way professional instruments. All you have to do is play the student 2335 and a Xeno back to back.

Also, while the quality of Yamaha student instruments is pretty high, it's not at the level of their professional offerings. I have play tested hundreds of student Yamaha trumpets, flutes, and clarinets as well as a fair number of higher level offerings. The fit and finish is solid on them, but the overall quality - while very good for student instruments - is not at the same level as the professional ones. Frankly, the student instruments Yamaha produced in Japan was of higher quality in the past than the current ones made mostly in Indonesia.

Your premise is incorrect and your examples are flawed or incorrect.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to defer to your experience in the music industry mr Finn. It is all too tempting to force opinions on one industry based upon experience in a different one. I may be guilty of this here.

As for OldSchoolEuph I love that expression"You have inverted the historical reality" you might have nailed it there.

Jay has stated the issue clearly that this is as much an issue of definition of what is student as any other.

I too have heard that the decision was taken in Olds to build student instruments specifically to address the student market. This just does not sit well with me however. This is skewing the product to sell into a reduced market and that is rarely a successful philosophy.

I see instead a gap analysis determining that there was a gap in the product lineup at the cheap end and they went through a process of creating a new product at lower cost to capture greater sales.

Not designing a student instrument but shaving assembly costs to offer a quality product at a cheaper price.

They did this by reusing existing parts from the other pro and intermediate products.

The leadpipe was a new design and the leadpipe affects intonation.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of noise here. Some time ago I visited a few times the Codarts music and arts university in Rotterdam, more special the jazz department (https://www.codarts.nl/en/jazz/) and saw and met a lot of players, more special trumpet players. They were all students in (as far as I know) second to fourth year.
Some of the (student) horns they played:
Hub van Laar B4
Yamaha 8335 LA
Hub van Laar B3
Bach 43
Bach 37
Selmer Concept TT
some classical guys:
Scherzer rotary type ?
Schagerl rotary type ?
Yamaha 9445CHS

Nothing wrong with student horns.


Last edited by delano on Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
A lot of noise here.

Agreed. Is it so complex?

Most major manufacturers have Beginner, Intermediate, Professional instruments. They are for marketing but also to give buyers a target range, regarding quality, features and price.

Some of the qualities crossover between adjacent categories. Some manufacturers concentrate more on one category over another.

The categories give one a ballpark category but nothing replaces credible reviews and personal trying out.
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arthurtwoshedsjackson
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

I too have heard that the decision was taken in Olds to build student instruments specifically to address the student market. This just does not sit well with me however. This is skewing the product to sell into a reduced market and that is rarely a successful philosophy.


What did your research tell you about the state of the post-WW II student/community band instrument market?

Read this from a highly reputable brass instrument historian for a big hint:
https://www.robbstewart.com/olds-catalogs
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
delano wrote:
A lot of noise here.

Agreed. Is it so complex?

Most major manufacturers have Beginner, Intermediate, Professional instruments. They are for marketing but also to give buyers a target range, regarding quality, features and price.

Some of the qualities crossover between adjacent categories. Some manufacturers concentrate more on one category over another.

The categories give one a ballpark category but nothing replaces credible reviews and personal trying out.


It is complex, and it is important because of the socio-economic interdependencies.

The student market emerged out of a paradigm shift in the public schools. The overwhelming size of that market then shifted the economic realities of instrument making. Take that revenue away (with the arrival of Yamaha, etc.), and the big companies fail - taking their higher end product with them, which then is ultimately replaced by high-end lines of the foreign (or in Europe, domestic) competitors that could do cheap cheaper, and more significantly by some amazing boutique makers who have pushed the envelope in design while filling that highest-end gap, advancing the art for all.

This is not a new static reality either, as there is a retrograde shift in the western public education arena happening now, with steadily fewer instrumental music students as 3-R obsessions are making it too hard to schedule such with one's other required courses. While that is happening in the US, under misguided attempts at "International curricular focus", it is notable that instrumental music in Asian schools continues to expand.

Will the student market cash flow dry up? Unclear. If it should, where we go as Yamaha, Carol, Jupiter, Buffet, etc. see their primary revenue stream continue to erode is an open question. (but it may grow - lots of kids in Asia)
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was the original question:

"Are there attributes of a student model trumpet that make it easier for a beginner to play. Or is it made less expensive so the student can get started?"
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
This was the original question:

"Are there attributes of a student model trumpet that make it easier for a beginner to play. Or is it made less expensive so the student can get started?"


Good point - that got lost a bit.

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Instruments designed to sell in this market can be grouped by a number of functional objectives:
- Priced at a point that can be justified as an educational resource for kids
- Reasonably durable under kid-related stresses (looser tolerances, heavy build)
- Not inclusive of features requiring higher ability to utilize
- Able to be produced at higher volumes / with less man-hours


So the first and last amount to affirmation of the affordability goal, but the third item speaks to the ease issue. The answer is "Both".

Regardless of price, selling a product that doesn't also accomplish something for the buyer is tough. With regard to that third point on the list above, if we look at the student market conceptually, and ignore that many online offerings at what should be obviously too low a price are just junk, then this still holds:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
There may have been a time when it could be argued that student horns in general were "easier to play" by way of more secure centering, heavier build for tonal stability if overblown, and a lack of distractions like saddles on first or triggers. Yes, a 65 Bundy would be "easier" to learn on than a Schilke B1.

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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
A lot of noise here. Some time ago I visited a few times the Codarts music and arts university in Rotterdam, more special the jazz department (https://www.codarts.nl/en/jazz/) and saw and met a lot of players, more special trumpet players. They were all students in (as far as I know) second to fourth year.
Some of the (student) horns they played:
Hub van Laar B4
Yamaha 8335 LA
Hub van Laar B3
Bach 43
Bach 37
Selmer Concept TT
some classical guys:
Scherzer rotary type ?
Schagerl rotary type ?
Yamaha 9445CHS

Nothing wrong with student horns.


Students are made up of a wide sampling of age and ability. The student level horns in question here are the likes of Yamaha 2335, Bach TR-500, etc. for beginning trumpet students around ages of 9 to 11 years. University level students typically would have nicer instruments to reflect their ability and level of dedication. But not always.

Not sure I personally would trust a beginner with my Berlin, but I've seen some beginner students with Strads and Xenos.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we forgetting that students are not always careful with their instruments? Student instruments are built with the thought that it will likely suffer some kind of abuse such as being dropped, stepped on, knocked off a chair, or just plain banged around. This kind of instrument with its heavier, less fragile metal can be repaired without completely destroying its purpose.
A more fragile "pro" instrument will do everything better for an experienced player. A pro instrument can be repaired, but will the sensitive player find it as good as before? In many cases certainly yes, but everything effects everything on a pro horn. Far more so that a student model.
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