Mouthpiece Buying Psychology

[Trumpetingbynurture]

One thing I've wondered about for an awfully long time is why there seems to be quite a difference in psychology between classical and jazz/commercial mouthpiece buying psychology.

I've noticed, as I'm sure you all have, that many jazz and commercial players (or aspiring players) want to own or try the mouthpiece of their favourite player. Whether it is the GR Wayne Bergerons, Louis Armstrong's mouthpiece, another Maynard replica etc or one of the myriad of signature mouthpieces out there, there's a demand for those judging by how many replicas are made.

On the other hand, the demand for a copy of, for example, Maurice Andre or Hakan's mouthpiece seems relatively non-existant, again going by the fact that replicas don't really seem to be a thing.

There's a demand for replica vintage mouthpieces, but not so much for 'signature' mouthpieces and I'm not sure why that is. I get that most classical players tend to use variations on a theme, the 1 1/4C being a favourite with a number of classical soloists for example, but seldom do we know much beyond that. Do Tine Thing Helseth and Alison Balsom have stock 1 1/4Cs or do they have modifications like an opened throat on their mouthpiece for C trumpet? Same for Hakan. He's on a modified Toshi (or a copy of) mouthpiece, but no idea of throat or backbore.

Obviously the mouthpiece isn't the primary contribution to their abilities... But that's kind of the point here. The same is almost certainly true of commercial players as well.
So why do either
A) Want to know every detail about a commercial/jazz soloist's mouthpiece or own a copy?
or
B) Why do we not care about every detail of a classical soloist's mouthpiece?

[Goby]

I was under the impression that every classical trumpeter playing on a big mouthpiece was looking to emulate Bud Herseth.

Most jazz players that I know play on something close to a 3C. The Monette B6 seems to be another popular choice. Commercial trumpeters are going to want the easiest tool for the job, so it would make sense that they would gravitate towards a design that was used by someone like Maynard or Wayne Bergeron.

There are obvious exceptions to the above, Wynton Marsalis, Ambrose Akinmusire, and Avishai Cohen all play on Monette B2S3's, and Sean Jones uses a 1-1/2C for everything (including lead). Rashawn Ross used to play a Monette B2L, now he's on a Donat 170F (17.0mm (.67") rim diameter, approximately a Bach 1.25 with a shallow cup).

Most of the old school jazz players were using Al Cass pieces, which aren't as popular in modern times, largely due to Steve Cass guarding his secrets so closely. The smaller diameter and sound concept of the Al Cass piece has also declined in popularity, but who knows, maybe that's the secret to sounding like a Blue Note trumpet player of years gone by...

[Trumpetingbynurture]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

It's an interesting question. It may come down to something as simple as image or 'coolness factor'. The jazz/commercial players are more visible and perform 'tricks' with a bigger 'wow factor' (triple high C's, lots of notes in a small timespan, etc.). They're also often the face of their group (i.e. Maynard and the Fergussons) which makes them highly noticable even to non-trumpet players. On the other hand, classical players are often part of a bigger section in an even bigger orchestra which makes them stand out less. They're no less skilled, but what they do is less 'flashy' and often repeated (to a lesser extent) by their section mates.

So visibility basically. Even here, people can probably name 25+ top commercial players but if you ask them to name 10 classical players, they might struggle.

As for the whole 'copying the stars' thing, I never got that even in high school. But I was the weird kid back then, not the the popular one (still am).

[delano]

No serious player older than fifteen will go for a mouthpiece only because a famous player uses it.

[chapahi]

There is a bigger disparity with jazz mouthpieces. Louis' mouthpiece is as wide as a Bach 1 but very shallow while Maynard's is a shallow V cup and about a Bach 10. I may be wrong but in the jazz idiom it's more to do with personal style and choice of idiom. Playing in a big band has a different requirement in terms of tone and projection than small jazz combo or trad jazz. I don't know, but would a classical player play a different mouthpiece for orchestra than brass quintet?
_________________
Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super

[Trumpetingbynurture]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

[stevecass]

[TKSop]

[Goby]

[kehaulani]

I'm not going to go into detail. Just . . I don't agree with your premise at all.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[stevecass]

[quote="Goby"][quote="stevecass"]

[O00Joe]

Total shot in the dark but my theory is it is because individual expression (and in this case sound concept) is more central to jazz whereas classical music is more about homogeneity and emulating recordings.

Only classical "signature" mouthpieces I'm really aware of are Rolfs' Stork 2B+25C, Smith's archetypal Bach 5B 24/24 with a different rim, and Hagstrom's Yamaha mouthpiece
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

[stevecass]

A thought about the original post topic. Classical players are indeed many of the very best, dedicated and consistent performers. They can't move so much while playing as to not create a distraction to the conductor, other musicians that surround them, or audience. They are contained and appear stiff, and the lights can get hot. I personally could not play under such conditions, each and every time, to have to play exactly what's written on paper. These players deserve more respect indeed. I would be more likely to do my own rendition and piss off the conductor, add a note here and there to do it my way. So it's a mentality and really shows the differences. The soloist classical players are truly incredible, those who can respect the original music as composed and give it just enough of their own style to make it more interesting and of course makes the conductor look good.

But Jazz players are totally different, they move around, they are playing different notes each and every time. Rarely play the same series of notes two nights in a row They are seeking to inspire themselves into a better performance, the audience doesn't want to hear the same notes, thus seeking those notes and not overly replicating oneself is the goal. Creating as they perform. They need to move around to think of what to play. Dizzy Reece "Dizzy by the way means "genius", Blue Note musician, he says to me, "Do you know what I mean when I say this mouthpiece swings?" "Do you have any idea what that means?" "Al Cass swings!"

My father probably catered to the jazz players because he knew them well because that's what he loved to play most. I think the idea of creating as performing turned him on. You have to be a big name to get away with this in classical music. Messing with classical music during that time was probably a no no. But he eventually set out to gain the respect of the orchestra players with the 4 series, which was the last series of trumpet pieces he created. The 1 series was made for himself, the 2 series was made because Diz needed something different, then along came the big band screaming leads, and the 3 series came into being. Then it was after he had success with these groups of players that he tried to gain the respect of the orchestra guys. Though he was at the top with the previously mentioned, he wanted to finally climb the ladder to conquer the orchestra community. (Let's just say it, classical is the higher class) He didn't conquer the classical world but he did get some respect from some of the performers in the different symphonies. He knew they wanted bigger pieces and the 4 series are the biggest pieces, especially the 4S series. Gaining the respect of the orchestra players was the ultimate achievement, though it was the less noticeable. Jazz and rock, the studio screamers, is flash! It's cool! Can ya dig it? These players make the most noise. The average person knows these type of trumpet players, not many regular folks know the top name in classical music. Classical is like fine wine, much more refined, not as flashy, (though today, there are some pretty flashy ones, and if my father were alive today, he would go after them too.) The 4 series pieces are obviously very scarce, the scarcest trumpet pieces by far, but hopefully one day, all you classical guys and gals will have them at your finger tips. That's the plan.

[stevecass]

[etc-etc]

[stevecass]

[RussellDDixon]

Why do those wanting to "emulate" Orchestral players gravitate to Bach 1C's? Why not a Schilke 24 ? Also, why not use the equipment that is most efficient to you as an individual ? Do you use a Back Hoe to dig out a Flower Pot ? Do you wear a size 16 shoe just because say Phil Smith wears that size ?

I play what works for me regardless of who's name may or may not be attached to it. And, of course, the tone (musical) quality produced should be the chief factor involved.

The Psychology is probably the same as people spending several hundred dollars on a pair of basketball sneakers cheaply made in China now just because a certain basketball players name is attached to it.

What say yall ?

[stevecass]