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trumpetman7984
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 Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:33 am Post subject: What is the purpose of these horns? |
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I have questions about the existence of several members of the trumpet family and why they exist, so I’ll just list them below. This is kind of a follow up to my last post on here where I learned about the F/G trumpet from one of the commenters.
F/G Trumpet - Where did it come from and what purpose does it serve? It seems like you could play F music on Eb and G music on A Picc.
E Trumpet - I have seen barely and literature written for it and it seems like all the literature can be played on C or D as well.
Rotary Trumpet - Why do professional musicians need the rotary and the piston? I know that the rotary is common in Germany and Austria, but why is there a need to have both if you can play the same literature on both instruments? Is there a major tone difference as whenever I hear the two, I cannot discern a major tone difference but that may be just because I have never heard a rotary being played live.
C Cornet - This instrument just doesn’t seem to have any purpose in my mind. Why not just use the Bb to play the same music?
Flugelhorn - Why did this instrument come to be?
Herald Trumpet - What purpose does this serve outside of fanfares? Why not just use a regular trumpet?
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walldaja
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Same could be said about cars.
But about trumpets--there is a definite difference in the sound of a C trumpet vs a Bb. I believe a lot of that is where the sound post is connected between the bell and leadpipe. The C trumpet has a lot more free bell to resonate. Also allows you to read piano music without having to transpose. The other key trumpets provide differences in range and fingering combinations making some pieces easier to play.
Often the literature asks for a specific instrument as well.
C cornets, like the C trombone, were often used by musicians to play along with piano music, especially in religious services. Transposition requires a lot more skill and experience than just basic reading skills.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: Re: What is the purpose of these horns? |
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| trumpetman7984 wrote: | I have questions about the existence of several members of the trumpet family and why they exist, so I’ll just list them below. This is kind of a follow up to my last post on here where I learned about the F/G trumpet from one of the commenters.
F/G Trumpet - Where did it come from and what purpose does it serve? It seems like you could play F music on Eb and G music on A Picc. |
Just my opinion, but for what it's worth - most of the F trumpet designs I've seen aim to be more like big, robust piccolos. (Whereas many Ebs aim to play and feel much more like big horns - Bb and C.) Something with a piccolo-ish sound concept that plays bigger/lower can be handy for pieces that go below concert D (most piccs I've played are not great below concert D - really, the fourth valve just gives you a low F). There are some Bach pieces that are up in the piccolo range a lot of the time, but are in C major, and go uncomfortably low for A piccolo, so a G or F trumpet can be ideal for these. It's definitely something of a specialist instrument, but they exist for a reason. Also, some people like the bigger/warmer piccolo sounds with these instruments. Finally, bear in mind that many piccolos are not hugely versatile for playing well in all different keys, so different instruments help to give more options for playing in good keys.
| trumpetman7984 wrote: |
Rotary Trumpet - Why do professional musicians need the rotary and the piston? I know that the rotary is common in Germany and Austria, but why is there a need to have both if you can play the same literature on both instruments? Is there a major tone difference as whenever I hear the two, I cannot discern a major tone difference but that may be just because I have never heard a rotary being played live. |
The difference, IMO, is mostly sound and response. I vividly remember the first time I played Mozart on a rotary, and suddenly found that it was easy and fun to blend with the horns, and the conductor was much less likely to give "the hand". Yes, they play the same notes in the same key, but the bigger bells, etc., on rotaries just seem to want to make a sound that's meaningfully different from piston valve instruments, where pistons needs to be cajoled into making those sounds, and they are a great fit for certain repertoire.
| trumpetman7984 wrote: |
C Cornet - This instrument just doesn’t seem to have any purpose in my mind. Why not just use the Bb to play the same music? |
These are mostly orchestral specialists. For the same reasons that one might choose C trumpet over Bb (brighter sound, tighter slots, playing in a more stable range, etc.), playing cornet parts in orchestra is often felt to be easier/better on C cornets than Bbs. Keep in mind that Bb cornets are built for brass bands and solos, whereas C cornets are designed mostly for orchestra, so it's no surprise they present advantages in that application.
| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | Herald Trumpet - What purpose does this serve outside of fanfares? Why not just use a regular trumpet? |
I hate these things, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I think the only reason one uses a herald trumpet (aside from the desire to make people (players and listeners) miserable) is for those unfortunate circumstances where having a flag hanging from a trumpet bell is felt to be worth sacrificing quality of sound, tuning, accuracy, and playing comfort in exchange for cheap novelty. |
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nltrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I personally love G trumpet for its ability to traverse baroque repertoire over multiple keys. It sounds good playing in most of the keys you come across in that era, Dmaj, Gmaj, Cmaj, Fmaj, etc. I did a church service recently with one piece in D and the other in F. Instead of switching from A pic to Bb, I used G for both.
F and E horns are more of a niche for sure. My G trumpet has options for those two keys as well.
Rotary horns just play and sound different. Bigger bell, smaller bore, shorter leadpipe, and of course the valves. They all make for a completely different sound and playing approach.
C cornet, again pretty niche. Wouldn’t mind having one, but I’d struggle to justify it.
I don’t know where exactly flugelhorn came from, but I’m glad we have it today. It really is a different animal from the trumpet, but switching between the two isn’t too difficult for most players.
Herald trumpet, to my knowledge, is mostly for show. The appearance is more akin to the long natural trumpets of centuries ago because of their length alone. |
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Shawnino
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:21 am Post subject: |
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It's my understanding that the 19th century saw many people (Sax perhaps the most famous today) make different instruments and instruments in different keys simply because they could.
Some designs have more staying power than others.
I happen to like the sound of any good fluegel player better than the sound of every great trumpet player. YMMV. |
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Subtropical and Subpar
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:24 am Post subject: |
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For whatever it is worth, Wiki says the flugelhorn was developed in Germany by putting valves on an English valveless bugle. I've also heard it be taxonomically described as a soprano tuba, which makes zero sense to me but... it's the Internet. Take everything with a grain of salt.
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cheiden
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:43 am Post subject: |
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"What is the purpose of these horns?"
Many of these horns exist by virtue of the evolution of the instrument. Many incarnations of what has become the modern trumpet have all but disappeared but many others linger because some folks continue to find them useful.
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delano
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:27 am Post subject: |
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What is the purpose of these horns?
Toys for boys. |
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I play both rotary and piston Bb on a regular basis. My rotary is a very lightweight model which further supports a more round and much broader sound. The Bach is on the heavier end with its GH bell and does what it is supposed to: rock, funk, big band, i.e. project with a rather dense sound.
The reason I purchased the rotary is that I did stand out much too strongly with the Bach in the orchestra. Plus the rotary works great with the horns and the woodwinds.
I would however be completely lost in my 10 piece soul/funk band using my rotary. That’s where I use the Bach.
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oxleyk
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:21 am Post subject: |
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7RnyM5tijCM
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:30 am Post subject: |
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On the taxonomy of the flugelhorn that was mentioned above: AFAIK this is correct. A flugel is the soprano member of the conical brass instruments. The lower ones are baritone, tenor horn, any saxhorn (invented by Adolphe Sax of saxophone fame), euphonium, and finally, all tubas. They are all conical instruments unlike the trumpet, bass trumpet, and trombone (all of which are cylindrical).
See conical horns in action:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo3ZDL-vYKk
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:18 am Post subject: |
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It's a matter of tessitura and tone. Which horn has the best fit the the key of the music being performed in the register it is written, at what volume level, with appropriate tonal characteristics (that's subjective) and balances well with accompaniment. There are local traditions based on the intent of the composer which can also fall into consideration.
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Liberty Lips
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Brassnose wrote: | | On the taxonomy of the flugelhorn that was mentioned above: AFAIK this is correct. A flugel is the soprano member of the conical brass instruments. The lower ones are baritone, tenor horn, any saxhorn (invented by Adolphe Sax of saxophone fame), euphonium, and finally, all tubas. They are all conical instruments unlike the trumpet, bass trumpet, and trombone (all of which are cylindrical). |
Where, then, do cornets fit in this equation? |
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Right between trumpet and flugel. Their conical section is more pronounced than in the trumpet but less so than in the flugel.
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tptjazzboy28
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Here in Nashville a huge amount of music is being recorded for major video games and movies. The top two players in town often bring up to 8 horns of various keys to these sessions, often not knowing what they'll need to play. Most of the recording is done on Bb, C, Eb or A/Bb piccolo but there are occasional parts that are nearly impossible to play. Since the players often see the music for the first time in the studio there's no time to work out these passages before recording starts. When an extremely challenging part comes up they will transpose on a horn that may make the line playable. That's when the E, F, and G trumpets come out.
The thinking is that you do the hard work at home in the practice room so your work is easier when you're in front of the mic (and sitting in an orchestra with 80 players on the floor!)
I know this may not be the norm for many players, but hopefully provides another use for instruments in less-than-common keys!
Best,
Chris
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:53 am Post subject: Re: What is the purpose of these horns? |
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| trumpetman7984 wrote: |
F/G Trumpet - Where did it come from and what purpose does it serve? It seems like you could play F music on Eb and G music on A Picc. |
Works like Vivaldi's Concerto in C for two trumpets and a number of Bach Cantatas are easier performed on the G trumpet than the A. For example, some of the trills in the Vivaldi are challenging, and fit easier on the G trumpet. The F trumpet to me is less valuable, and I no longer own one. Never found a work that I preferred on the F trumpet, but many that I prefer on my G1L-4.
| Quote: | | E Trumpet - I have seen barely and literature written for it and it seems like all the literature can be played on C or D as well. |
It seems to me that the E trumpet is the one I can justify least. The Hummel was written for E trumpet, and some orchestral works, but the E trumpet is just not a horn I use, ever. I even prefer playing the Hummel on my E3L with D bell and slides, solely for tuning and quality of sound.
| Quote: | | Rotary Trumpet - Why do professional musicians need the rotary and the piston? I know that the rotary is common in Germany and Austria, but why is there a need to have both if you can play the same literature on both instruments? Is there a major tone difference as whenever I hear the two, I cannot discern a major tone difference but that may be just because I have never heard a rotary being played live. |
If you lived in Austria, Germany, and other places where the rotary is the defacto standard, your opinion would probably be vastly different. In America, the growth of rotary use has been gradual and generally, excluse to the orchestral scene. The number of auditions that require a rotary for specific works has grown in the last few years. I know that, for me, the rotary is another specialty trumpet, and to be honest, a section of mixed rotary and piston trumpets makes little sense.
| Quote: | | C Cornet - This instrument just doesn’t seem to have any purpose in my mind. Why not just use the Bb to play the same music? |
Great works that can use a C cornet include L'Histoire and the Symphonie Fantastique, but neither require it. I use a C cornet on the Stravinsky because the cornet is what the composer specified, and because I prefer my Schilke AC2 to some of the old A/Bb cornets that are out there. I use it on the Berlioz because he specifies cornet, and because I like that lighter, brighter cornet quality for his works. Again, the section needs to both play cornets on the cornet parts, or this change is meaningless and creates issues in terms of blend and tuning.
| Quote: | | Flugelhorn - Why did this instrument come to be? |
The flugelhorn was germanic in origin, but french in it's application. Adolph Sax invented both the saxophone family, and a conical brass family he called saxhorns. The soprano saxhorn is called the flicorni in Italian, the flugelhorn in german. It was used in classical settings long before jazz. Mahler's 3rd Symphony has a posthorn solo that Mahler specified being a flugelhorn part in the first printing and manuscript. There are a number of other works that use the flugelhorn. The sopranino flugelhorn (petite saxhorn) was used by Berlioz in several works. Mahillon piccolos are really flugelhorns when considering they are conical and not cylindrical. The sound is different from a modern piccolo.
| Quote: | | Herald Trumpet - What purpose does this serve outside of fanfares? Why not just use a regular trumpet? |
The purpose of a herald trumpet IS a fanfare instrument. In the hundreds of times I've played a herald (and I own three), the best I've ever played is a Monette (set of six) that we used at Indiana University for special events. They were great, but still played like a herald. The Bach Strad I own is a little less in tune than the Monette, but still very managable and usable. The two Olds Studio heralds I own are fine for most things, but poorer tone quality at the extremes of the range, where the Bach and Monette shine.
Hope this helps,
AL
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Brassnose wrote: | | Right between trumpet and flugel. Their conical section is more pronounced than in the trumpet but less so than in the flugel. |
On his excerpt CD, Phil Smith stated the cornet was created by adding valves to a posthorn.
Maybe the cornet nominally belongs to the horn family, since cornet means "little horn."
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: What is the purpose of these horns? |
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| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | F/G Trumpet - Where did it come from and what purpose does it serve? It seems like you could play F music on Eb and G music on A Picc. |
As noted by others, these are orchestral instruments. There are parts that sound as the composer intended, only when played with the deeper timbre of these horns. Also, they made it a little easier back in the day when you had to be playing fairly high to have a lot of notes. . . .
| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | E Trumpet - I have seen barely and literature written for it and it seems like all the literature can be played on C or D as well. |
Hummel and Haydn. For that matter, a lot of trumpet music in that vein just sounds amazing on an Eb, or D trumpet (personal favorites Yamaha YTR-761 and Bach 236) There is a clear crystalline quality, even with the core of a Bach 236, that just soars above the music with these higher pitched horns. They are soloistic instruments at the core.
| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | Rotary Trumpet - Why do professional musicians need the rotary and the piston? I know that the rotary is common in Germany and Austria, but why is there a need to have both if you can play the same literature on both instruments? Is there a major tone difference as whenever I hear the two, I cannot discern a major tone difference but that may be just because I have never heard a rotary being played live. |
The tonal properties of a horn are controlled by many things, but the proportion and placement of varying degrees of conicity are the most influential. Traditional rotary construction expands more, earlier, and has bell tapers very different from a piston valve instrument. The result is a tonal quality still dominant in a lot of European venues.
| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | C Cornet - This instrument just doesn’t seem to have any purpose in my mind. Why not just use the Bb to play the same music? |
There are, as noted above, orchestral passages that call for this specifically, and a brighter, tighter cornet sound, is a unique sound. Beyond that though, these were once "vocal" cornets, back when the cornet was the star of popular music and people played these in their homes for fun with friends (like a guitar in my day). Pitching them in C allowed the hobby cornet player to play along with piano sheet music and hymnals as friends and family sang along (made church playing easier too). Remember, the parlor piano, often rectangular, was the popular music star before the cornet and singing in the parlor had not gone out of style yet when C cornets were most common (late 19th c.)
| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | Flugelhorn - Why did this instrument come to be? |
Some say it is a piston valve rotary, others a soprano French horn. There are lots of theories, but no denying the role it has played in many musical genres. Much like Amazon, that has no peer, it just is what it is, and a lot of people like it. (and again like Amazon, some dont)
| trumpetman7984 wrote: | | Herald Trumpet - What purpose does this serve outside of fanfares? Why not just use a regular trumpet? |
Drama, pure and simple. These horns are made to be seen as well as heard. Heralding the sovereign dates back to the earliest civilizations (reasons explained in Timeline of Trumpets first chapter), and was greatly exploited by mid-ages nobility. It was once about the sound, but for a few thousand years it has been about the pageantry. - the trick is to find one that sounds as good as it looks....
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andybharms
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:31 am Post subject: |
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F/G is a good horn for, say, Vivaldi double concerto. It also works for orchestral music that hangs out in the upper register and piccolo just sounds a little off— Porgy and Bess comes to mind.
Rotary horns are used in orchestral settings for Austrio-Germanic music of the Romantic period. It blends well with strings. That’s pretty much it. More and more though even Germans are trained on piston and prefer piston for day to day practicing.
E Trumpet is mostly just for E Hummel, its original key. Can’t think of another reason aside from maybe the odd phrase or two for which a D part might work better in E or Eb. A lot of trumpeters play the bottom Bach parts in Eb so as to avoid open combinations In Cmaj, which tend to be harder to tune than Bmaj.
C cornet is a cool instrument. A lot of trumpeters would use this for Mahler 3 posthorn, Mozart posthorn, or even Petrouchka ballerina dance.
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