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improver
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 Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: Taking off first slide tuning mechanism, is it ok? |
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| I have 2 early Elkhardt Bach's that I love, but one seems to blow tighter and feel heavier because it has that tuning kick mechanism which since I'm a jazz player is useless. I don't use it. Does anyone know how to take it off. I think first slide tuning is useless. Thx |
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delano
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Hahaha, I agree but I'm afraid I will be the only one. Especially the guys here who are very busy with 'professional' trumpets will be straightforward insulted.
BTW I use the first slide trigger on my Eterna 800 cornet (mainly for E up in the staff with 1+2) but never use the first valve slide on my trumpets. |
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Divitt Trumpets
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Joined: 11 Aug 2015
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Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Taking off first slide tuning mechanism, is it ok? |
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| improver wrote: | | I have 2 early Elkhardt Bach's that I love, but one seems to blow tighter and feel heavier because it has that tuning kick mechanism which since I'm a jazz player is useless. I don't use it. Does anyone know how to take it off. I think first slide tuning is useless. Thx |
What does jazz have to do with not using your tuning slides ?
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Taking off first slide tuning mechanism, is it ok? |
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| improver wrote: | | I have 2 early Elkhardt Bach's that I love, but one seems to blow tighter and feel heavier because it has that tuning kick mechanism which since I'm a jazz player is useless. I don't use it. Does anyone know how to take it off. I think first slide tuning is useless. Thx |
While the premise seems a bit debatable, it is not hard to address.
It is not clear if you are talking about a trigger or a saddle. If a trigger, take out the tiny screws and put the parts in a zip-lock in the case for the next guy who may want them. The trivial amount of mass from the pivot point soldered to the casing won't make any significant difference and can be left there (as you see on horns for sale every so often - along with a note explaining the lower price is because they lost the parts).
If a saddle, order a replacement slide through Allied (the parts have not changed since shortly after WWII for 1st slide), put your original slide in a bag in the case to preserve value on resale, have the saddle unsoldered from the new slide and buff it smooth.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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trpthrld
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improver
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| " what does jazz have to do with using your tuning slides" that's the point I don't use them because I'm not playing in a situation where 1st slide intonation is necessary. My ear tells me what notes need to be adjusted with air and lips. Trust me I'm not the first jazz musician who didnt use a 1st valve tuning slide. I just took that saddle off and actually the horn plays better without that lopsided weight on the 1st valve and tuning slide. I'm able to play in tunes easier. Lol incidentally I'm 63, played in my share of orchestra and sections in my life. I never used the first saddle, and never used the 3rd one consistently. |
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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| improver wrote: | | " what does jazz have to do with using your tuning slides" that's the point I don't use them because I'm not playing in a situation where 1st slide intonation is necessary. My ear tells me what notes need to be adjusted with air and lips. Trust me I'm not the first jazz musician who didnt use a 1st valve tuning slide. I just took that saddle off and actually the horn plays better without that lopsided weight on the 1st valve and tuning slide. I'm able to play in tunes easier. Lol incidentally I'm 63, played in my share of orchestra and sections in my life. I never used the first saddle, and never used the 3rd one consistently. |
I'm with Improver on this. I have many horns that don't have any way of correction as they were made before that became the fashion. I'm used to adjusting without extending slides. I do have horns with those and use the trigger/rings when exposed and held notes dictate, but really I have to think about it to remember.
When did slide adjustment mechanisms become common?
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improver
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Actually that's a good question. It didn't seem to bother Bach when he was pumping out great horns for so many years without them. I have a NY 37 medium bore with no 1st valve saddle and now 2 Elhardts with none. They play really well in tune. I think the 1st valve saddle is more bell and whistle than anything. Imho |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| improver wrote: | | Actually that's a good question. It didn't seem to bother Bach when he was pumping out great horns for so many years without them. I have a NY 37 medium bore with no 1st valve saddle and now 2 Elhardts with none. They play really well in tune. I think the 1st valve saddle is more bell and whistle than anything. Imho |
It all depends on
1) How tight and hard does the horn center?
2) How skilled is the player at adjusting without compromising tone?
Bach design has changed over the years (see my table at trumpet-history.com for details) and in the process, the answer to #1 has changed considerably - with a great range of answer based on options in the modern era.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | improver wrote: | | Actually that's a good question. It didn't seem to bother Bach when he was pumping out great horns for so many years without them. I have a NY 37 medium bore with no 1st valve saddle and now 2 Elhardts with none. They play really well in tune. I think the 1st valve saddle is more bell and whistle than anything. Imho |
It all depends on
1) How tight and hard does the horn center?
2) How skilled is the player at adjusting without compromising tone?
Bach design has changed over the years (see my table at trumpet-history.com for details) and in the process, the answer to #1 has changed considerably - with a great range of answer based on options in the modern era. |
3) What the player's pitch sense is.
I don't know the OP and please don't interpret this as questioning his pitch sense. But...
I had the pleasure of playing in a section with a first call major symphony player and his wife. I thought it cute and slightly funny that the wife with perfect pitch would occasionally inform her husband that he was off pitch on a note.
Obviously he was a monster player and played in situations where playing off pitch is noticed.
My point is that his sense of pitch was not as acute as his wife's. |
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etc-etc
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Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6177
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | improver wrote: | | Actually that's a good question. It didn't seem to bother Bach when he was pumping out great horns for so many years without them. I have a NY 37 medium bore with no 1st valve saddle and now 2 Elhardts with none. They play really well in tune. I think the 1st valve saddle is more bell and whistle than anything. Imho |
It all depends on
1) How tight and hard does the horn center?
2) How skilled is the player at adjusting without compromising tone?
Bach design has changed over the years (see my table at trumpet-history.com for details) and in the process, the answer to #1 has changed considerably - with a great range of answer based on options in the modern era. |
3) What the player's pitch sense is.
I don't know the OP and please don't interpret this as questioning his pitch sense. But...
I had the pleasure of playing in a section with a first call major symphony player and his wife. I thought it cute and slightly funny that the wife with perfect pitch would occasionally inform her husband that he was off pitch on a note.
Obviously he was a monster player and played in situations where playing off pitch is noticed.
My point is that his sense of pitch was not as acute as his wife's. |
I recall someone (one of the trumpet greats) saying that if an exposed note can only be played either off-pitch or off-center, it is better to choose off-pitch as otherwise the note will not ring. |
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dstpt
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Posts: 1283
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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My 1960 MV Bach Mercedes (for sale) is like many where you can't adjust the 1st slide. Nevertheless, pitch centering is very good on that horn despite the lack of a device. There are newer horns on the market that purposely omit a 1st saddle/trigger, like the Van Laar Oiram models. I had a used one for awhile and only missed not having a way to adjust A above the staff, but it was ever so slight on the high side of the pitch. There are all kinds of ways to adjust pitch...one of my favorites is to play louder than everyone else and make them adjust to you!  |
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