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Miles mouthpiece - Heim or Gustat?



 
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beagle
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Miles mouthpiece - Heim or Gustat? Reply with quote

I was a bit confused about the mouthpieces Miles used having heard them variously called Gustat, Gustav, Heim, and sometimes Hein mouthpieces. In his biography Miles talks about this guy he took lessons from called Gustav who made these V-shaped mouthpieces that were a bit like a French Horn mouthpiece.

However, I believe the guy was actually Joe Gustat, who played first trumpet in the St Louis symphony at the time. As far as I know, he didn't actually make the mouthpieces, these were designed by Gustav Heim who was a great player with the Boston Symphony.

It looks like Miles may have merged Gustat and Gustav together in his mind when he was recalling this story. It looks like they should probably be correctly called Heim mouthpieces, unless of course Gustat was making his own copies rather than selling Heims. In which case Gustat would be correct.

I've heard that a few companies make replicas of these mouthpieces. Has anyone here tried them? If so is there anything I can do with a V-shaped mouthpiece that I can't do with my trusty Bach 3C?

Rob
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josephdb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miles played a Heim most of his career but in later years his mouth piece was made as a copy of the Heim by Giardinelli which is shown on the cover of the cd Miles & Quincy Live At Montreux. That piece is somewhat large diameter that the original Heims and not as deep. Valdimer at Dillons can make an exact copy of that mouthpiece. I have both an original Heim, by the way it is a two piece and and an older Heim one and two. I also have a one of miles original Giardinelli. Hope this helps.
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Mark Bradley
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kanstul makes a Gustat #1 and #2 that are exact copies of the old originals. I believe the #2 was given to Wallace Roney by Miles himself who in turn lent it to Kanstul us use as the copy. I've played them-- not bad, definitely a different era type piece though. If you do a search they've been discussed before.

As a side note I'm a huge Miles Davis fan and have been on something of a revival studying his music of late. Miles tends to get a bad rap as someone who didn't have much range or technical ability. Wrong-- listen to his old stuff with Tadd Dameron and you'd swear it was Dizzy. Check out "Miles Smiles" among others to see just what a great player on a technical level he really was... but of course his true genius was his ability to achieve an artistic expression through the horn unmatched by any other. Miles is "the man with the horn."
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wvtrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miles did play a Heim, however they are very similar to the Gustat. My first trumpet teacher a gentlemen named Richard Wellock grew up in Springfield and use to study with Joe. Joe was by all accounts and amazing musician and teacher. And my teacher had an old Gustat mp laying around that was pretty cool, but it had a very shallow cup. That being said, I am sure that Gustat tailored them to meet the needs of particular players. The thing that was really cool about Gustat is back during this time, he was one of the few white teachers that would teach black musicians!!! A really great guy and very ahead of his time! From the stories I was told of him, I wish I had met him
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bunny
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I beleive Mr. Gustat played a role in Clark Terry's development as well.
He wrote an excellent cornet solo, "To the West."
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md-jones
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about the versions now made by Holton? They are listed as the Heim 1 and 2. Are they serious replications or just cheaper copies, like the new Giardinelli's aren't exactly like the old ones. Just curious.
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallace comes by my shop quite frequently. I have seen both a Gustav not Gustat and a Heim Model 1 that he claims both belonged to Miles. I will ask him next time he swings by.
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Big Daddy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J. Landress Brass wrote:
Wallace comes by my shop quite frequently. I have seen both a Gustav not Gustat and a Heim Model 1 that he claims both belonged to Miles. I will ask him next time he swings by.


Have you ever had the chance to ask?
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more info concerning the Heim/Gustat mp's:

http://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/Jazz_Cups.html

They can make them in different sizes.

I bought recently a Holton Heim 2 (Mouthpiece express via Conn mouthpieces) as a fun thing but it turned out to be a mp with a fantastic sound! The Holton Heim 1 is only 15,85 mm cupdiameter, has a medium deep cup and a big throat with 3,96mm.
The Heim 2 is 16 mm, has a medium shallow cup and a (still big) throat of 3,86 mm. The rim is EXTREMELY small and for that reason difficult to play, especially in the low register (and if you use pressure). The throats of the Heims are on the big side so they can be a little tiring the first days.
I never experienced such a change in sound by a mouthpiece (on a trumpet of course). The sound is not really very bright but more "fresh". Also some deep sound in it and a very unexpected lyrical ring to the sound. My regular mouthpiece is (was?) a Warburton 6M-cup with a 7 bb, sometimes a 6D-cup. I play a Yamaha 6345G (old standard weight model) trumpet.
The Holton Heim is beautifully produced.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Miles mouthpiece - Heim or Gustat? Reply with quote

beagle wrote:


I've heard that a few companies make replicas of these mouthpieces. Has anyone here tried them? If so is there anything I can do with a V-shaped mouthpiece that I can't do with my trusty Bach 3C?

Rob


When I got the Kanstul G2, I wasn't naively expecting to suddenly start sounding like Miles but I didn't expect to sound that much NOT like Miles. It's bright. In fact, I had to block out the whole "Miles" thing to get acclimated. It's a wonder to me how he got that sound if he was using a mouthpiece like that. I've heard Harry James used the Heim 2 also before famously switching to Parduba.

A light weight, short shank, hybrid V-cup/bowl shape mouthpiece, it seems almost like a cornet/trumpet hybrid. It's not great for projecting loud but I like it for some of my horns.
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intrepidpooch
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're like me and would love to get the sound and efficiency that the Heim's V cup is noted for producing but hate the rim of the Kanstul G2 or Holton's Heims, Austin Custom Brass V Series Trumpet mouthpieces might be worth trying out. Trent is copying the rim from my favorite mouthpiece and making me one that uses the V cup that was taken directly from the Miles Heim mouthpiece. There's a clip of him playing one with an old 1968 3C rim and the V cup and it sounds great. I should be getting it in the next month and a half when it's complete, I'll definitely let you all know what it plays like. They're also a steal at only $75 for rims that he already has and $125 to copy a rim from a mouthpiece of yours. Definitely a great deal for a custom mouthpiece. It is available at Austin Custom Brass' online store, definitely check it out guys!
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BobD
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is a really old post but i just bought a Kanstul Gustat 2 from Jack. It was a custom piece with a slightly thicker rim. Really looking forward to it.

I think he still has pieces left to sell if anyone is interested.
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halfgreek12
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott Wendholt plays on an old Holton Collegiate mpc which is supposedly along the lines of those pieces. Sometimes you can snag them for cheap on ebay.
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nowave
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobD wrote:
I know this is a really old post but i just bought a Kanstul Gustat 2 from Jack. It was a custom piece with a slightly thicker rim. Really looking forward to it.

I think he still has pieces left to sell if anyone is interested.


Interesting! How do you know what he’s got & how did you connect with him?
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BobD
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found him on facebook. His email was posted on facebook as jrkanstul@gmail.com.

I assume he would be happy to hear from anyone interested in a mouthpiece.
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