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Confessions of an old mean man



 
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject: Confessions of an old mean man Reply with quote

I have to confess: I have not performed the BE method as is requested.
Instead I have merely used the Roll outs 1-3 and Roll ins 1-3 mixed with
Advanced Lip Flexibilities, Double Tongue. Besides that I suspect that I have missed the brilliant underlying idea.
Why?
To make a long story short (well...)
Finding the BE I started out as was suggested – astonishing things began to happen, endurance, sound, the ability to use deep mouthpieces etc.. Quite overwhelming!
At the same time I one more time was occupying lead chairs, continuing front row, a lot of rather big musical demands coming in/up. Range seemed stuck at D above high C, most of the time but endurance kept becoming better and better. A rather intense musical period began – I had to practice all kinds of music while at the meantime
keeping up with the BE, Finally I guessed that I had to warm up much more, to be able to do the Roll Ins, practicing the difficult runs of the brass, fighting lead sheets in two big bands.
Many of the studies in the BE book seemed too rudimentary to me. After all I´ve played in bands since 1958….
How wrong I was……
Now, again in quarantine I have time….no gigs at sight, nothing musical going to happen in the foreseeable future.

I decided that I should start all over with the BE, performing it exactly as is written. No more no less. The routine after” 2-3 years”.
Guess what happens?! Today, day 6 in I started out roll outs 1-4 (difficult, lips swelling a bit but Eb above high C; then Crescendo (whole)Tongue on lips (all) then a pause , one hour; returning playing Roll Ins 1, 2, 3 starting at high C, done in a row!!!! 80 bpm…little pause then advanced lip flex up to E; then double tongue -followed by entire “Slavonic Rhapsody nr 2 (Friedman) score Denis Wright.
Oh my! I am astonished! I have a solid Eb above high C (like I had 45 years ago).

Deep down I have had a feeling that I have missed the basic idea of the BE, i.e. looking upon double tongue studies as studies of double tongue…..
What if all these studies, rather elementary for a guy who´s been playing more than 60 years, are devised not having the goal of say producing a nice double tongue as the end product but instead strengthening the aperture muscles, that part of the lips below one´s nose - while in the meantime also resulting in a fine double tongue, or attack in general???
If I´m wrong tell me so in plain language!

No, I repeat no need at all for additional warm up…..Better late than never…...
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Seymor,

I think the main benefit you are getting in "starting over" is in changing around your routine and finding better ways to get your high chops working.

The "warm-up" is a huge variable among players.

For example, I knew a great player who performed best right after pulling the horn from the case. So, if you wanted him to play Maynard's Maria, put it first on the program. But another guy preferred to just beat the hell out of his chops for an hour, and then rest an hour, then perform. At that point, he was consistent to G above double C. Just remarkable.

These are extremes, of course. Most players fall somewhere in the middle. My own preference is to not get hung up on a long warmup. Over time, it can become a crutch. Find shorter solutions. In my experience, that applies to both commercial and orchestral players alike.

You are noticing some shift in your range.

When a player hits a range limit in BE, it is usually because of some specific thing that is not emphasized enough. In your case, I doubt that you are making some major error in your interpretation of BE. It is more likely something that you are easily overlooking. Maybe your current experiment will be enough to get the ball rolling again.

As I have mentioned before, I offer to analyze player videos for free. Sometimes the issue is easy to spot, and sometimes not. Sometimes it means shifting around your routine. But there is nothing to lose, as all it costs you is the time to make the video which illustrates the issue.

Hope you keep making progress in your current direction!

Jeff
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting Jeff!
Yes I have been fiddling around with the BE - now not so - I have began to practice as you suggest - in the very order printed under the heading "2-3 years".
Not only do I notice changes in my range - but most of all a new sense of stability in my chops, the aperture feels so much stronger, more focussed.
Playing the Crescendo study is one example - I can feel how my lips stay more closely together instead of getting "blown apart". All the time focusssing on keeping the lips together.

Due to this terrible covid19 I am not haunted by gigs or concerts -instead using it to solidify. Think and rethink.
One of these days I will take advantage of your so generous offer and send you videos of my efforts. Not exactly rocket science to transmitt from my Iphone but not that easy either. Besides that I´m in quarantine, long from my ordinary computer.
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Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Seymour, since you and I are alike both in age, and experience? I thought I'd toss in a thought or two RE my recent work related to rolling in. First of all I hope that you're well and feeling at least as well as I am. Because things are simply going fantastic here.

Since my embouchure change began 16 months ago I've found it most helpful to use a significant rolling in in all registers. Even in the lower register. That and am keeping the center of my upper lip both relaxed and with a slightly larger/more open aperture when playing down low. As I'm definitely not dropping my jaw nor allowing the mouth corners to go soft. Meanwhile the muscles set to roll in remain rolled in regardless of register and continue functioning in this rolled in position.

In order to ascend I'm not accentuating the roll-on much at all. In fact the only muscular movement that I'm aware of is to very slightly close my teeth while adding air pressure. That and ever so lightly increasing the mouthpiece çontact pressure but only most mildly.

In fact the only roll- in movement I'm using is related to pooching out my chops. In other words making them thicker so as to increase resonance and enhance endurance. To the best of my knowledge this roll out is not done to reverse the effect of my roll-in at all. Or rather my roll-in is related to other factors outside the realm of register change.

Conclusion:

Seymour seems like an interesting, smart fellow and I'm not trying to dish out any advice to him at all here today but rather to see if he can relate to any of these concepts or actions. If he does? I'd be interested in his feedback.

"That's All Folks"!

As per Mel Blanc lol.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel!
First I have to swallow my so bold statement:" No, I repeat no need at all for additional warm up…..Better late than never".
As the say: never say never!
The swelling of my lips didn´t go away so after a while I began doing the same warm-up-routine. Thereby solving the swelling. Sigh!

Then: Thanks for the kind words. I bet I´m a bit closer to the "End Storage" and I´m an amateur (but a rather seasoned one at that). But we do seem to share that ambition of never throwing in the towel. Old stubborn farts!
Becoming older has at least one definite advantage when it comes to playing: out of necessity you will have to upgrade/hone your way of using the body in the most work-saving manner possible. Back to the drawing board!!
That what you describe seems reasonable and pretty much as I do it. I look upon roll outs and roll ins as occupying the both ends of a continuum. In my younger days, as far as a I remember (I just played..)I had a rather pouting embouchure, that gradually changed into more of the roll ins. When playing the soprano in the brass band I remember that I did some "moves" with my lips in order to play higher; these moves were probably rolling in further + doing something with my tongue...
The strenght provided by youth permitted me to use roll outs (=pouting) up to a certain "level" - what then happened I just do not know! (=never thought about it...). But I had no problems nailing Ebs or Es or even F# sometimes. The G was more of a sqeak (have to add that I took my first lessons 6 years ago..)
Anyhow - this continuum - I use the 'roll outs' as means to en end, to exaggerate the lip movements when ascending, trying to maintain them but eventually end up in a 'roll in' - the transition should be performed seamlessly. Lateley this seems to work better and better. But playing the exercises roll out 3 etc. is difficult - my lips must be wet!
For me - the challenge is to keep the aperture tight, not flexing - that leads to leaking in the corners.
Putting my tongue into a "whistling state" seems to be of help; I´ve a tendency (probably many of us have?) to, really without knowing, take to a smiling embouchure. Using my tongue as if I were to play "Ks" as in double/tripletongue, upper part of said organ touching the oral cavity roof, sort of, seems to help. A lot of "seems" but I keep on testing....

Does this make sense?
(That´s all folks - and then for the Looney tunes...)
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It certainly does make sense Seymour.

During the course of my earlier post that I admit was wordy the one thing that I forgot to mention was that while the motion of the roll-in and roll-out apparently represent opposing usage of facial/lip muscles? They appear to me to result in conditions that are not exactly opposites. Which I find interesting. As it's not what I might have expected.

Because when I roll-out or ''pooch out'' my lips I may be performing this task to get more resonance on a tone. That and perhaps to work as a buffer against the mouthpiece. So as to prevent circulation loss and the resultant fatigue. Now having said that?

Back when I once played what many might call ''Downstream''? It was then that I used this same pooch to cram a whole ton of lip tissue down into the mouthpiece cup. I did this because by inserting a bunch of extra upper lip flesh into the mouthpiece I could then produce some NICE High G's!
And apparently, this trick worked well enough so as to allow me a survivable if kinda short career as a road traveling musician and lead trumpet. Unfortunately, the cramming of my upper lip into the piece required a pretty heavy amount of arm pressure in order to pull off the resulting high tones (it also caused my face to glow bright red!). Over time this eventually leading to the ruination of a portion of my dental structure. It was predictable when I think about it. That and an old story by now.

However, it was just yet another crucial element in my learning process. Or in other words, I no longer play the trumpet with significant arm pressure.

Whoops! Almost forgot to thank Jeff for his work in explaining the function of the roll-out. As his works are probably the only place where a trumpet player may find any discussion of this vital embouchure movement that is basic to learning to play a brass instrument. At leastways I've never seen much discussion of this movement outside of his B/E book. Which to my thinking is grossly remiss on the part of the rest of the ''industry''. But of course, this is not the first time that I've felt this way.

And I hope that you are healthy Jeff. What with all the drama and epidemic issues throughout the world? I wish you well. As per moi? Since we chatted last? I've now a pair of blonde granddaughters! And they make me happy! (:
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
the one thing that I forgot to mention was that while the motion of the roll-in and roll-out apparently represent opposing usage of facial/lip muscles? They appear to me to result in conditions that are not exactly opposites. Which I find interesting. As it's not what I might have expected.

Because when I roll-out or ''pooch out'' my lips I may be performing this task to get more resonance on a tone. That and perhaps to work as a buffer against the mouthpiece. So as to prevent circulation loss and the resultant fatigue.


To piggyback on your comments:

One of the biggest misconceptions about BE is the RI exercises are for playing high and RO exercises are for playing low. This misconception used to annoy Valerie Wells, as she mentioned it on her blog a few times.

In hindsight, I didn't address the relationship between RO and RI pointedly enough in the book. I figured that since I had already given a very pointed explanation of the primary reasons for the RO exercises (page 61), and that none of the reasons included making it easier to play low notes, that any further clarification was unnecessary.

I was wrong.

Each exercise (RI, RO) activates certain muscles. It is the type of muscular activation that is important, and not the register the notes are played in.

The RI activates inward gripping muscles in the upper and lower lips. It is easier and more effective to do this exercise in the upper register.

The RO activates a forward and inwards motion of the mouth corners. It is easier and more effective to do this exercise in the double pedal register.

There is obviously more to it, but that is the gist of it.

The motions gained by doing each exercise are not in complete opposition - rather, they combine to create higher levels of balance in regular playing.

And it is not just the RI and RO exercises that combine. All of the exercises in the book, when done properly, combine to keep the player moving more or less in the right direction.

Congratulations on the granddaughters!

Jeff
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankfully I just decided that my first attempt at a response was overly long and wordy etc. So I pasted it in my Yahoo drafts and deleted what was on this page. The ideas were interesting if I do say so myself, but as usual, I carried on too long.

What I think are the most significant of my thoughts that were just shelved is this: I see a crossover between a purely physical approach and the R-I, R-O exercises of yours. As I recall you'd often stated that a purely physical or scientific approach was something that you felt wouldn't appeal to the masses of trumpet players seeking support. Correct me if I'm wrong but this was my inference.

In my own work, I too have recently noticed that most trumpet players will usually find a scientific approach too challenging. At least at first. Obviously, I disagree with their immediate assessment but I respect that they feel this way. As it's no use to try and cram a concept down someone's throat. And this brings me to your R-I, R-O exercises. Because after working with some students on what you call the ''Lip lamp Squeaks'' it recently dawned me that these exercises tend to automatically move the chops into a more useful alignment. In other words a setting that closely resembles the physical/scientific approach that I've been developing and incorporating over the years.

The last thing is that as I recall you said some fairly brave things about the educational process in your B/E book. It's been a while since I read it. Apologies for that. However, this was the chapter that I actually found the most illuminating. The only thing I wanted to add about that is that it certainly appears to me that the band director or teacher of young/beginning trumpet players has some serious challenges with his trumpet-playing students. One obvious thought that only recently came to me was that as trumpet players, we're the only instrumentalists who regularly suffer from range problems. There aren't many sax players who can't at least play most of their instrument's range. and even in the low brass these issues are far less critical (than on the trumpet). Anyway... I just thought that the beginning trumpet player, like his teacher has some real challenges too. That is as when compared to his neighboring instrumentalists. But perhaps this goes outside the realm of B/E so I will call it a night. They're interesting ideas but perhaps somewhere else. And just be grateful that I deleted my first response lol...
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
... One obvious thought that only recently came to me was that as trumpet players, we're the only instrumentalists who regularly suffer from range problems. ...

-------------------------------------------
Range (both upper and lower) is also a big concern of French horn players - and Balanced Embouchure has become used by them in about the last 15 years (thanks to Valerie Wells and Wendell Rider).
I imagine that baritone/euphonium and trombone players also have their own upper range troubles.
And tuba players sometimes delight in attempting high notes, but I don't know if it is a concern for the standard repertoire playing range.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
What I think are the most significant of my thoughts that were just shelved is this: I see a crossover between a purely physical approach and the R-I, R-O exercises of yours. As I recall you'd often stated that a purely physical or scientific approach was something that you felt wouldn't appeal to the masses of trumpet players seeking support. Correct me if I'm wrong but this was my inference.


You need to define "purely physical approach." From my perspective, BE is primarily a physical approach.

Further, I think that there are different types of physical approaches, some more analytical than others. A trumpet embouchure is very complex. For me, the overly-scientific approach is the one that errs by delving into too many complex anatomical or physics details, and uses gadgets such as spring-loaded mouthpieces for training aids. You can approach the instrument from a physical direction without doing any of that.

Lionel wrote:
In my own work, I too have recently noticed that most trumpet players will usually find a scientific approach too challenging.


My impression is that people have a different idea what constitutes "science." If they don't agree with the stated goal of the science (i.e. triple high C for everyone) then they will likely also disagree with the method.

Lionel wrote:
The last thing is that as I recall you said some fairly brave things about the educational process in your B/E book. It's been a while since I read it. Apologies for that. However, this was the chapter that I actually found the most illuminating.


I'm glad you liked it. Basically, I was just commenting on the types of bias typically encountered in the teaching world. I know a lot more about bias in brass pedagogy now, and will hopefully write a paper or book on the new findings. As you know, I recommend Sowell's "A Conflict of Visions" as a basic primer for seeing how bias plays out in society. Or, if reading a book from a conservative is off-putting, then read Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate," chapter 16.

Lionel wrote:
The only thing I wanted to add about that is that it certainly appears to me that the band director or teacher of young/beginning trumpet players has some serious challenges with his trumpet-playing students. One obvious thought that only recently came to me was that as trumpet players, we're the only instrumentalists who regularly suffer from range problems. There aren't many sax players who can't at least play most of their instrument's range. and even in the low brass these issues are far less critical (than on the trumpet).


I understand what you are saying, and to some extent agree. But I am less strong on this point than you. Band directors in the US are the gatekeepers of instrumental development. In 40 years, I have rarely come across a band director who considered upper brass range - much less extreme brass range - to be a primary issue. And if the gatekeepers are not interested, then you are fighting a losing battle.

For you, the biggest challenge is to show how how your approach can be used in a normal educational band environment. For most band directors, the range-of-motion and balance approach of BE seems unfamiliar, as it is different from their college training. In my opinion, your rationale and upper register emphasis/approach seems even more radical.

Lionel wrote:
And just be grateful that I deleted my first response lol...


I am grateful, thanks!

Jeff


Last edited by trumpetteacher1 on Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Lionel wrote:
... One obvious thought that only recently came to me was that as trumpet players, we're the only instrumentalists who regularly suffer from range problems. ...

-------------------------------------------
Range (both upper and lower) is also a big concern of French horn players - and Balanced Embouchure has become used by them in about the last 15 years (thanks to Valerie Wells and Wendell Rider).
I imagine that baritone/euphonium and trombone players also have their own upper range troubles.
And tuba players sometimes delight in attempting high notes, but I don't know if it is a concern for the standard repertoire playing range.


Yeah they have these problems Jay. And vocalists may have even greater concerns about range that do we trumpets. Especially when we consider a powerful bass singer. I'm not sure but it doesn't seem that a heck of a lot can be done for those who want to sing bass but simply don't have the pipes for it. I wish that I could sing bass too.

However, the range problems faced by lower brass players just don't seem to become as acute as what the trumpets regularly face. Example: Most trombone and Euphonium players who start building up their chops will eventually become able to ''free-buzz'' a concert pitch B flat above Middle C (middle C on the piano keyboard that is). However unless a trumpet player is utilizing a concept such as Jeff's 'Lip Clamp Squeaks' it's pretty darn hard to 'free-buzz' a comparable tone. Relative to the standard trombone? The same note in the nodal series is a Concert B flat just below High C on the trumpet. That tone is pretty hard to buzz on just the chops alone/no mouthpiece. Again not without using the Lip Clamp Squeaks.

Incidentally, I'm trying very hard here to avoid straying from the concepts in B/E. However I wanted to say that I've recently had excellent results at incorporating these Lip Clamp buzzed pitches into useable tones. Far better luck than in years past when my understanding was more limited. It has always been my feeling that range is something that ought to come first. That is if the young student has the time and incentive to start developing his high range.

Obviously, it is much easier to buzz a bunch of lower tones than it is to play well above High C. However I've noticed during my research that many/most trumpet players who begin playing the trumpet but start in the lower register will usually find it difficult to convert their lower register embouchure into an upper register set of chops. That it is kind of a 'hit or miss' set of results. I was one of the luckier ones and perhaps a bit more fortunate than most. As at least I had a strong G/High C. However even so this was a note that required great physical exertion on my part. That and was virtually the last note in the upper register that I could play.

Another problem with teaching the upper register first is that it probably takes a more motivated student than average in order to pull it off. And while he's squeaking and developing his chops and making many cacophonous tones? Meanwhile, his peers are playing all the way through the elementary method. That and keeping the band director pleased with their overall musicality. In other words, our high note 'squeak artist' may eventually become a killer trumpet player with enviable range, but at least during his first year or so he'll likely fall behind his peers. I'm not sure of this but have been told that initially Wayne Bergeron was a little like this description. He had a fantastic Double C but struggled to blow a useable Low C.

Okay I sense that I may be straying a bit beyond the acceptable limits of this forum's mission. Many apologies in advance for that. It's just that I've seen a number of most sensible posts here lately. That's like a breath of fresh air to me. In the meantime, I'm going to take a short ''sabbatical'' from TH. My own playing is finally hitting a stride showing good growth. And I feel that I must now take every available chance to pursue my technical goals. I hope to return in a couple of months. Or maybe during the summer. At which time it is my expectation that a number of my personal goals will then be reaching the summit. So thank you all for your input and company. Best regards!
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